Why has LE drifted away from 9MM?

Pretty poor stopping power, even with hollow points. Always has been that way, always will be. That's the reason why they developed the high capacity "spray & pray wondernines" a long time ago, lots of bullet hits will stop them.

I think the agencies would be better off spending the money on firearm training for their officers than for the latest whiz bang rounds.

I have yet to see any proof the 40S&W outperforms the 9mm in stopping aggression. I have been involved in the shooting of thousands of pounds of VYSE ballistics gel and the difference between the performance of the two when equal quality defensive ammo was used was negligible. In ball yes...the 40 has an edge just as the 45 has an edge over the 40.

It still all boils down to 3 things....location, location, location...

Trying to compensate for inadequate firearms training and poor shot placement with a more powerful cartridge.

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While the 40S&W does provide slightly better numbers at the sacrifice of a couple of additional rounds, the above statement has a lot more credence. It reminds me of the .38 spl -vs- 9mm debate from the 80's.

Fieldstone said:

One reason Maine switched was because a Trooper would have to empty his weapon to dispatch a whitetail at a car/deer accident. They looked under gunned standing on the side of the road firing shot after shot at a thrashing wounded deer. The .45 silences then pretty quick. They also carry carbines in .45 which turns out to be a nice weapon in any armed situation.

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If you can't put down a crippled deer with a round or two of 9mm, you likely aren't going to be able to do it with .45 either.

.45 may be better but it is not magic.

One reason Maine switched was because a Trooper would have to empty his weapon to dispatch a whitetail at a car/deer accident. They looked under gunned standing on the side of the road firing shot after shot at a thrashing wounded deer. The .45 silences then pretty quick. They also carry carbines in .45 which turns out to be a nice weapon in any armed situation.

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I'm a LEO in Maine and I've never heard of the ability to dispatch a wounded deer being a consideration in the caliber/weapon choice of any department. I carry a 9mm on and off duty and have put down a few wounded deer and it hasn't taken me more than one round yet.

One reason I think the .40 has become so popular with LEAs is it's not a military round.

The .40 S&W gives them a caliber they can call their own and isn't just some military caliber converted to civilian use.

In the old days they had their revolver rounds .38/.357 to distinguish them from the military and their pistol calibers, but now that they've gone to pistols the .40 gives them the option of using a non-military caliber.

Probably not so much now with the popularity of .40 but in the early days it probably also helped the investigators determine which shots had been fired by LEOs at a crime scene.

Alright!

We need to get to the bottom of this 9mm vs. .45 thing!

Simple, after the 1980's miami fbi shooting fbi went to 10mm (to powerfull), S&W came up with 40sw, FBI adopted it. Police Dept. across the USA didn't want to be left behind. So almost every PD went to 40sw or 45acp.

Some states like New York want to limit, the power of the guns the police carry, so thats why you have 9mm for the NYPD. N.Y. feels 9mm is adequte for the police use and it limits potential liabilty from larger or more powerfull rounds

Because whoever was in charge of making that decision probably frequents this forum and now thinks that the 9mm will only bounce off people when put into use.

I wonder if the 9mm, .40, or .45 would be best for neutralizing the threat of runaway caliber war threads like this one?

9mm has been killing people for a loooooong time. it works just fine. handguns in general aren't that great at "stopping" people,you need a rifle to really put someone down.

I have yet to see any proof the 40S&W outperforms the 9mm in stopping aggression. I have been involved in the shooting of thousands of pounds of VYSE ballistics gel and the difference between the performance of the two when equal quality defensive ammo was used was negligible. In ball yes...the 40 has an edge just as the 45 has an edge over the 40.

It still all boils down to 3 things....location, location, location...

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I agree, but I say it boils down to 4: location, location, location, penetration.

One reason I think the .40 has become so popular with LEAs is it's not a military round.

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Interesting point, sir.

After the miami fiasco the FBI contacted smith and wesson to develope a new round and a gun to shoot it. it seems the thought "if its good enough for the FBI" has permiated.. If you look at balistic gelatin fingerprints for popular rounds (think brassfetcher has a sight you can compare) the 147 grain JHP 9mm has the exact penetration as a 180 grain Jhp .40 your right shot placement then penetration is key to a successful stop. As a side note the 155 grain.40 winchester silvertip jhp is reported to have a 91% on shot stop compared to the 147 grain 9mm which is reported to be 89%, Also barrier penetration was also a concern. 180 grain .40 will punch thru a windshield pretty darned good.

If you want to have the latest whiz-bang do-dad, you can always rationalize it by saying your old whiz-bang do-dad is wore out/inferior/obsolete. I think that's what happened in the LE community when the .40 was introduced. The FBI adopting the "10mm lite" and turning the 9mm into a scapegoat just accelerated the trend right out of the gate.

Well the 9mm always did have a reputation for poor stopping power when compared to the almighty .45 or .357magnum.

Right or wrong the Miami incident and other failings were used by the 9mm haters as proof that it was an inferior round. And considering the poor penetration a lot of the early 9mm HPs got, they may well have been right. Sure you can rightly claim that HP bullet technology has came a long way since then but at the time the 9mm with the HPs of the day was not a great round.

How many of you would be carrying a 9mm if those old style HPs that only got 8 or 9" of penetration were still all you could get?


The 40 S&W was just in the right place at the right time to gain a foothold and for a variety of reasons it took off like wildfire.

It all started with the FBI switching to .40. They are sort of the established handgun gurus. What they use, everyone else wants to use. Couple that with the well timed introduction of the .40 caliber Glock not too long after, and you can see why it caught on so fast.

The difference in stopping power between 9mm and .40 is marginal at best. It does hold up better when going through intermediate barriers. It also satisfies the "high cap guys" and the "big bore is better guys", kind of a median that they can both be happy with and the dept. only has to worry about stocking one pistol caliber.

I think both are well suited for LE or CC.

I'm pretty sure 9mm is the second most common U.S. LE cartridge

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Hasn't been for years. The 9mm has dropped to about 15 percent.

New Jersey being the forerunner it is in Firearms Training......

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Yes, they are. NJ was one of the first in the country to mandate, by Attorny General's order to require low light qualifications twice a year. They also mandate every firearm used by an employee be qualified with twice a year.

I have to laugh when some comment on the level of training but would scream when the addition funding is requested for further training. Where do these scarce funds come from? The overtime required, the cost of ammo, range rentals? One additional range session for my department of 70 would cost about 14K.

Good point about the Glock Ben86.

I don't think it's just a coincedence that the rise of the .40 coincided with the rise of the Glock as the main choice of LEAs.

The Beretta 92 and the 9mm were the first pistol of choice in the transition from the revolver era by most LEAs.

Once again I think a lot of LEAs were senstive to the criticism that they were becoming militarized or paramilitary organizations and using the same pistol and ammo as the military was bad PR for them.


The Glock and it's .40 S&W ammo once again were in the right place at the right time.

again and again and again

Does anyone read a thread before posting? Or, is plaigarism rampant?

Entertaining thread....

Good thing the Virginia Tech shooter was ONLY armed with a 9mm...



M

"Why has LE drifted away from 9MM??"

Perception of a need vs factual reality.

Perhaps the primary reason why departments have transitioned away from 9mm to .40 S&W has to do with inspiring LEO confidence in their equipment.

9mm has historically been disparaged for its assumed lack of terminal effectiveness compared to other calibers. This makes officers question the adequacy of their equipment.

.40 S&W isn't 9mm.

.40 S&W pistols generally hold more cartridges than .45 ACP.

.40 S&W can be fired from 9mm sized medium frame handguns which are a better fit across the board than large frame .45 ACP handguns.

Modern 9mm JHP cartridges are substantially improved over designs of just a couple of decades ago and are on par with modern .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Past criticisms of 9mm do not apply to modern 9mm ammunition - just like past criticisms of the M16 do not apply to the modern M16/M4. Both have evolved but the legacy of past poor performance exists in the minds of many.

What he said....

IF there has been any such drift, it is likely because LEOs often shoot through intervening barriers, more so than armed citizen non-LEOs. With modern jacketed hollowpoints - as well as many guns in the caliber being able to hold lots of them - I don't feel "underarmed" with 9mm Luger. For that matter, the plain old Federal 9BP is usually accurate and functions well in everything, and you don't hear "horror stories" about it.