WTC 7 Was "Pulled"

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J
 
World Trade Center Seven collapsed on September 11, 2001, at 5:20 p.m. and it would be impossible to set the proper charges to bring down a building of that size in the time allotted. There are those who believe that it was a controlled explosion and use this

SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif

as proof. There is a page devoted to the WTC 7 collapse at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

More at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema_report.html

and more http://serendipity.cia.com.au/wot/wtc_other.htm

and more http://thewebfairy.com/911/pullit/ .

As proof that the building was "pulled", meaning intentionally demolished, conspiratorialists base their contentions on these two audio snippets:

http://thewebfairy.com/911/pullit/PULLIT.mp3 and http://thewebfairy.com/911/pullit/pull-it2.mp3

So by this, the fire department would have been inside the building, not fighting the fire, but setting dynamite charges so they could "pull" the building down. Its a good thing that NY firefighters are also expert demolition and explosives experts.

Riiiight... :rolleyes:

From http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/World_Trade_Center.html :
On Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 8:45am New York local time, One World Trade Center, the north tower, was hit by a hijacked 767 commercial jet airplane, loaded with fuel for a trans-continental flight. Two World Trade Center, the south tower, was hit by a similar hijacked jet 18 minutes later at 9:03am. (In separate but related attacks, the Pentagon building near Washington D.C. was hit by a hijacked 757 at 9:43am, and at 10:10am, a fourth hijacked jetliner crashed in Pennsylvania.) The south tower, WTC 2, which had been hit second, was the first to suffer a complete structural collapse at 10:05am, 62 minutes after being hit itself, 80 minutes after the first impact. The north tower, WTC 1, then also collapsed at 10:29am, 104 minutes after being hit. WTC 7, a substantial 47 story office building in its own right, built in 1987, was damaged by the collapsing towers, caught fire, and later in the afternoon also totally collapsed.

We are talking about bringing hundreds of pounds of dynamite through stalled traffic and closed roads, preparing the load-bearing columns, placing the demolition charges, and bringing down a major structure in the span of seven hours.

If one is familiar with the demolition of a building, one knows that the concrete must be stripped from the columns so the charges are in intimate contact with the steel beams. Conspiratorialists want us to believe that either the buildings were pre-prepped for the big show on 9-11 without anyone being the wiser or that the buildings were demolished on 9-11 within seven hours with no preparation.

So if you are into conspiracy theories, this is the place.
 
Hey, it's not me that said it.. It was Larry Silverstein himself. Did you see the video clip? It's not like it's hard to understand what he said.

J
 
I heard the clip and even posted a link to it and the comparison link to a guy describing "pulling" building 6.

I never implied that you said anything and am fully cognizant of your intentions. I merely posted several conspiracy sites in addition to yours and refuted, by my own opinion and observations, the contention that the building was intentionally demolished in what could only be described as record time.
 
Dude, these WTC threads are so wrong...this is a gun related board not "The Jewish Bolsheviks Killed the Czar and the Space Aliens Gave me an Anal probe" Board....

Al Qaeda blew up the WTC. Deal with it.

Wildcanthisstuffbebanned?Alaska
 
I see... But really, when you look at the footage... The building falls just like a controlled demolition job. You can't deny that. And that should be enough to cause question... Not to mention, the only visible damage was fire on the 7th floor and the 12th floor.

Here's a pic of the building 2 and a half hours before it "collapsed."

bd7.jpg

Then you have the tapes of all the firefighters talking to each other, only one of them is available to the public. And in that tape, it appears the firefighters have building 7 under control and not raging infernos that would take down the building. Why are the other tapes classified, what's on them?

J
 
Question is, what context is he using the term "pull it"?

Is he talking about demolishing the building, or is he talking about the fire department's efforts to contain the fires in the building?

Is he, in fact, talking about having the fire department stop efforts contain the fires and save the building?

Even IF the building was intentionally demolished in a spur of the moment decision, so what?

The building had been evacuated, it was structurally unsound, and it would have either collapsed or have been demolished no matter what. It was unsalvagable.

What remains fact, however, is that the building's fate had been determined hours earlier, when the two towers collapsed.

Anything that happen afterwards was just anticlimax.

The fact that the building did fall like a controlled destruction job means one thing -- that basic, elementary physics were involved.

WTC 1 and 2 fell like controlled demolition jobs, and it's very clear that the ageis of collapse was from the top down.

Physics dictate that it's virtually impossible for a building to topple over sideways. Once the structure becomes unstable (remember, buildings are solid, they're over 95% air), the force of gravity is far greater than any other force that's acting on them, and gravity pulls straight down; it doesn't push sideways.


"Not to mention, the only visible damage was fire on the 7th floor and the 12th floor."

So? Is fire damage the only type of damage that will cause a building to collapse?

The impact of WTCs 1 and 2 falling was not unlike a very severe, localized earthquake on the buildings around WTC Plaza. Those buildings alone kissing ground could have cause more than enough structural damage to fatally weaken the surrounding buildings.
 
Mike, I understand your point about a building toppling over sideways... However, if one corner of a building becomes unstable, is that going to bring down the whole building in a symetrical fashion? I seriously doubt it. I guess you're saying all 4 corners were equally damaged and happened to give at the same time? Let's throw those chances at a calculator and see what we come up with.


So? Is fire damage the only type of damage that will cause a building to collapse?


The impact of WTCs 1 and 2 falling was not unlike a very severe, localized earthquake on the buildings around WTC Plaza. Those buildings alone kissing ground could have cause more than enough structural damage to fatally weaken the surrounding buildings.

Really, what were the seismographs of 9/11? Oh wait. It's appearant you haven't looked into that... You'd be delighted in your search, now go look it up.

J
 
"However, if one corner of a building becomes unstable, is that going to bring down the whole building in a symetrical fashion?"

Obviously that depends on the integrity of the rest of the building, and exactly where the collapse starts, and how the building has been preweakened. In short though, yes, it can happen.

In the views that are shown of the building collapsing, however, we see a single low angle aspect. There's no way to tell what was going on at the two rear corners of the building as it began to collapse.

For all we, or anyone else knows, the collapse could started the rear of the building collapsing in an asymetrical fashion, while by the time the collapse progresses to the front (or what we see as the front and right sides) it appears that the collapse is nice and symetrical a la a controlled demolition.

What we're expected to believe in this scenario, however, is that in the midst of the incredible carnage of that day, that some nebulous people -- fire fighters, government agents, space cowboys from Mars -- were able to enter a dangerously unstable building with enough explosives to effect the collapse.

Again thought, I ask, even if that DID happen, so what? Is this "proof" of some vast, multi-level governmental conspiracy that somehow proves that Osama Bin Laden wasn't behind the WTC attacks?


"Really, what were the seismographs of 9/11? Oh wait. It's appearant you haven't looked into that... You'd be delighted in your search, now go look it up."

Congratulations, you've completely missed the point, and you'd be very, very wrong.

I said act like a very severe LOCALIZED earthquake.

I can give you a long, very in-depth explanation of why the WTC 1 & 2 collapse barely registered on seismographs outside of the region. It has to do with how energy waves travel through bed rock and underground strata, and how impacts at ground level are tamped by intervening soil layers.

But that explanation would obviously be wasted, so I'll go with a very simple explanation that hopefully you'll understand.

There's a commercial for a mattress made of some sort of high-tech material that shows a woman jumping on one side of a queen bed while a full glass of red wine sits undisturbed on the other side.

That's an example of the kind of tamping that I'm talking about. If you move the wine glass closer to her, the effect of the energy she imparts on the mattress when she jumps will have a greater effect on the glass, and a greater chance of knocking it over.

The farther away from her the glass is, though, the greater the tamping effect of the intervening material. The energy is absorbed.

So, in short, don't go jumping on a lack of seismographic data showing massive tremor readings to be another "proof" for these claims. Using that angle only shows a serious lack of understanding of what a seismograph measures, and the science behind it seismography.
 
I find it interesting that when one goes to the PBS.org site they find that there is no Larry Silverstein listed in the profiles of those interviewed for the "America Rebuilds: A Year After Ground Zero" program. The list of profiles is here: http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profiles/index.html

A Year Unlike Any Other

Since September 11th, rescue workers, engineers, contractors, families of victims and community activists have all worked together in the massive effort to recover victims, clear the site and plan its future.

Mike Burton

Understated and cool under pressure, this city engineer became the "go-to-guy" at Ground Zero.

Richard Garlock

With extensive knowledge of WTC engineering, he helped guide rescuers and construction workers safely through the ruins.

Monica Iken

She turned grief over losing her husband into a mission.


Sam Melisi

One firefighter helped defuse the most difficult personal conflicts at Ground Zero.


Peter Rinaldi

The Port Authority engineer watched the Towers fall while on vacation; he returned to help coordinate the clean-up.


George Tamaro

Having supervised the company that built the Twin Towers foundation, this "below grade guy" helped prevent disaster during clean-up.


Charlie Vitchers

He always wanted to work on the world's largest construction site. But this wasn't what he expected.


Madelyn Wils

This community leader wants Lower Manhattan to become a vibrant place to live and work again.
 
Oh, I dunno, I just find it interesting... I'm analytical by nature and don't like to adhere to the spew that's fed (no pun intended) to us... Now that I ponder this subject or many political subjects for that matter, I find the debates to be rather circular. I view information from my side of the fence while others view it from their side. With the same information it's possible to form conflicting outlooks.

J
 
This reminds me of someone :D
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Photo above is fitting indeed

Not to mention, the only visible damage was fire on the 7th floor and the 12th floor.
Boy, is this ever a revelation... :rolleyes:
Just what do you think brought down the Twin Towers......? I'll give you a hint, it was the FIRE! :rolleyes:


As to buildings and how they fall, they are not trees. Gravity pulls DOWN. They tend to fall that way, straight down once gravity defeats their load bearing ability.

2 cents
...and tinfoil all the way around ;)
 
JitsuGuy:

I see... But really, when you look at the footage... The building falls just like a controlled demolition job. You can't deny that. And that should be enough to cause question... Not to mention, the only visible damage was fire on the 7th floor and the 12th floor.

Looks can be deceiving.

"visible" damage as "just" fire on the 7th floor and 12th floor? The damage that brought down the building was attributed to it's foundation being weakened as a result of the Twin Towers collapse.

Here's a pic of the building 2 and a half hours before it "collapsed."

So you do support the conspiracy theory.

keep in mind a key aspect of any good conspiracy theory: Shiney Side Out, if you construct your tin foil helmet with the reflective side in then you "lock in" the mind control rays and the Gubbamint has total control of your every action. With the reflective surface on the outside the foil will safely deflect these evil mind control rays.
 
Not to mention, the only visible damage was fire on the 7th floor and the 12th floor.

So the big plane that flew into the side of the building didnt cause and "visible damage". I think that says all we need to hear about how important point of view is. Yeah the oklahoma federal building looked just FINE from one side too. If you look REALLY hard at that clip you can actually see the building wobble back and forth as it collapses. It doesnt LOOK like much but when you think about how much sheer MASS is moving its a lot of force. Ive seen controlled demolitions up close and seen footage of accidental collapses the fact is that building only collapse in one direction, DOWN. Its phenomena known as GRAVITY. What direction do YOU think the WTC should have collapsed in?
 
Even IF the building was intentionally demolished in a spur of the moment decision, so what?

The building had been evacuated, it was structurally unsound, and it would have either collapsed or have been demolished no matter what. It was unsalvagable.

If that were the case, and I say IF, then that would take some explaining as to why the secrecy.
 
I'm getting really tired of these :cuss: conspiracy theories.

You gonna tell me next that the roof of the pentagon was blown intentionally too?



James
 
"fnord
fnord n. [from the "Illuminatus Trilogy"] 1. A word used in email and news postings to tag utterances as surrealist mind-play or humor, esp. in connection with Discordianism and elaborate conspiracy theories. "I heard that David Koresh is sharing an apartment in Argentina with Hitler. (Fnord.)" "Where can I fnord get the Principia Discordia from?" 2. A metasyntactic variable, commonly used by hackers with ties to Discordianism or the Church of the SubGenius."

Yep, fnord. :scrutiny:
 
Engineers Suspect Diesel Fuel in Collapse of 7 World Trade Center
November 29, 2001


By JAMES GLANZ
Almost lost in the chaos of the collapse of the World Trade Center is a mystery that under normal circumstances would probably have captured the attention of the city and the world. That mystery is the collapse of a nearby 47-story, two-million-square-foot building seven hours after flaming debris from the towers rained down on it, igniting what became an out-of-control fire.


Engineers and other experts, who quickly came to understand how hurtling airplanes and burning jet fuel had helped bring down the main towers, were for weeks still stunned by what had happened to 7 World Trade Center. That building had housed, among other things, the mayor's emergency command bunker. It tumbled to its knees shortly after 5:20 on the ugly evening of Sept. 11.


The building had suffered mightily from the fire that raged in it, and it had been wounded by the flying beams falling off the towers. But experts said no building like it, a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire, and engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened and whether they should be worried about other buildings like it around the country.


As engineers and scientists struggle to explain the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, they have begun considering whether a type of fuel that was inside the building all along created intensely hot fires like those in the towers: diesel fuel, thousands of gallons of it, intended to run electricity generators in a power failure.


One tank holding 6,000 gallons of fuel was in the building to provide power to the command bunker on the 23rd floor. Another set of four tanks holding as much as 36,000 gallons were just below ground on the building's southwest side for generators that served some of the other tenants.


Engineers and other experts have already uncovered evidence at the collapse site suggesting that some type of fuel played a significant role in the building's demise, but they expect to spend months piecing together the picture of what remains a disturbing puzzle.


"Even though Building 7 didn't get much attention in the media immediately, within the structural engineering community, it's considered to be much more important to understand," said William F. Baker, a partner in charge of structural engineering at the architectural firm Skidmore, Owings & Merrill. "They say, `We know what happened at 1 and 2, but why did 7 come down?' "


Engineers said that here and across the country, diesel-powered generators are used in buildings like hospitals and trading houses, where avoiding power outages is crucial. Partly for that reason, Jonathan Barnett said, a definitive answer to the question of what happened in 7 World Trade Center is perhaps the most important question facing investigators.


"It's just like when you investigate a plane crash," said Dr. Barnett, a professor of fire protection engineering at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute. "If we find a weakness in the building or a deficiency in the building that causes that collapse, we then want to find that weakness in other buildings and fix it."


In many ways, 7 World Trade Center, built and owned by Silverstein Properties, was structurally similar to its towering cousins across Vesey Street to the south. The weight of the building was supported by a relatively tight cluster of steel columns around the center of each floor and a palisade of columns around the outside, in the building's facade.


Sprayed on the steel, almost like imitation snow in holiday decorations, was a layer of fireproofing material, generally less than an inch thick. Although the fireproofing was intended to withstand ordinary fires for at least two hours, experts said buildings the size of 7 World Trade Center that are treated with such coatings have never collapsed in a fire of any duration.


Most of three other buildings in the complex, 4, 5 and 6 World Trade, stood despite suffering damage of all kinds, including fire.


Still, experts concede, in a hellish day, 7 World Trade might have sustained structural injuries never envisioned in fire codes. That day began with flaming pieces of steel and aluminum and, horribly, human bodies raining around the building.


With the collapse of both towers by 10:30 a.m., larger pieces of the twin towers had smashed parts of 7 World Trade and set whole clusters of floors ablaze. An hour later, the Fire Department was forced to abandon its last efforts to save the building as it burned like a giant torch. It fell in the late afternoon, hampering rescue efforts and hurling its beams into the ground like red-hot spears.


Within the building, the diesel tanks were surrounded by fireproofed enclosures. But some experts said that like the jet fuel in the twin towers, the diesel fuel could have played a role in the collapse of 7 World Trade.


"If the enclosures were damaged, then yes, this would be enough fuel to explain why the building collapsed," Dr. Barnett said.


Dr. Barnett and Mr. Baker are part of an assessment team organized by the American Society of Civil Engineers and the Federal Emergency Management Agency to examine the performance of several buildings during the attacks. If further studies of the debris confirm the findings of extremely high temperature, Dr. Barnett said, "the smoking gun would be the fuel."


Others experts agreed that the diesel fuel could have speeded the collapse, but said the building might have met the same fate simply because of how long it burned.


"The fuel absolutely could be a factor," said Silvian Marcus, executive vice president for the Cantor Seinuk Group and a structural engineer involved in the original design of the building, which was completed in 1987. But he added, "The tanks may have accelerated the collapse, but did not cause the collapse."


Because of those doubts, engineers hold open the possibility that the collapse had other explanations, like damage caused by falling debris or another source of heat.


The fuel tanks were not the only highly flammable materials in the building. But while some engineers have speculated that a high-pressure gas main ruptured and caught fire, there was none in the area, said David Davidowitz, vice president of gas engineering at Consolidated Edison. The building was served only by a four-inch, low-pressure line for the building's cafeteria, Mr. Davidowitz said.


The mayor's command bunker, built in 1998, included electrical generators on the seventh floor, where there was a small fuel tank, said Jerome M. Hauer, director of the mayor's Office of Emergency Management from 1996 to 2000. That tank was fed by a tank containing thousands of gallons of diesel fuel on a lower floor, he said.


Francis E. McCarton, a spokesman for the emergency management office, confirmed that assessment. "We did have a diesel tank in the facility," he said. "Yes, it was used for our generating system."


The manager of the building when it collapsed, Walter Weems, said the larger tank sat on a steel-and-concrete pedestal on the second floor and held 6,000 gallons of diesel fuel. He said an even larger cache, four tanks containing a total of 36,000 gallons of diesel fuel, sat just below ground level in the loading dock near the southwest corner of the building.


"I'm sure that with enough heat it would have burned," Mr. Hauer said of the diesel. "The question is whether the collapse caused the tank to rupture, or whether the material hitting the building caused the tank to rupture and enhance the fire."


Falling debris also caused major structural damage to the building, which soon began burning on multiple floors, said Francis X. Gribbon, a spokesman for the Fire Department. By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons.


A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said.


"Any structure anywhere in the world, if you put it in these conditions, it will not stand," Mr. Marcus said. "The buildings are not designed to be a torch."

http://www.wirednewyork.com/wtc/7wtc/default.htm
 
OK, this proves it:

There are people out there who not only need the tinfoil hats, they also need a tinfoil jockstrap to prevent passing along this kind of thinking to their children.

Jim Peel is kind and rational in response, but on this garbage, I vote with WildAlaska.
 
Well, if those tanks ruptured, and the diesel spread into already-hot fires, it would definitely help increase the temperatures. I doubt it would be like burning off from the top of a storage tank...

Art
 
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