Self defense failures?

There are plenty to be found, mainly from law enforcement encounters. One that taught many lessons was the 1986 FBI Miami shoot out....It was a major eye opener for most in the law enforcement community and civilians alike.

Any time you have to defend yourself you've failed, somewhere. The only good fight is one you aren't present for.

The LA bank robbery comes to mind. Woefully under-equipped law enforcement officers up against body armor wearing bad guys w/ full auto.

The 1986 Miami shootout, as mentioned above, was interesting on a number of levels. It confirmed the reality of hydrostatic shock, and lead to a very interesting study on the effectiveness of "caliber" and "stopping power" that was quite eye opening.

Here's one: Texas courthouse shooting with BG firing an AK and GG w/ CHP engaging but getting killed.

Tom Givens tells one account in his Lessons From the Street video of one of his students who shot well, but managed the situation very badly -- in essence helping to instigate the altercation -- and ended up very nearly spending much time in jail. He got off with several years worth of probation, but that's quite a powerful "what can go wrong" lesson, and worth checking out.

I was working the day that "Miami shootout" occurred (fortunately the city I worked for was about 20 miles from where that went down). It caused a major re-structuring of the feds tactics and was, just in general, a sad situation. For a few years after that the feds made a point of trying to recruit cops with heavy street experience into joining up. I'm not sure how well that worked for them since the one or two applicants that I knew weren't hired. I imagine that they were really conflicted about cops from my area... wanting the experience but fearing what might come with it....

I noted a gradual change over the years with my department (and others) regarding serious weapons situations. We heavily emphasized officer safety --and real world officer survival techniques, with hands on videotaped training on ambush avoidance, establishing perimeters (instead of doing that whole "foot chase thing"), team tactics (k-9 and handler, backed up by a shotgunner) and absolutely ended building searches by officers (nothing like using a k-9 properly to search buildings, period). Whenever I see the various training efforts to teach officers how to properly search buildings I automatically know that they're seriously old fashioned (and old fashioned can get you just as dead as John Wayne....). Waiting the time it takes to have a dog team or two come out and do things the right way just makes so much more sense....

Along with the changes in tactics and philosophy came the widespread use of SRT (or SWAT, or whatever name you give them - I kind of like "emergency services unit" if you just must have some sort of euphemism...) for any situation that might be a problem. We made it part of our doctrine and used our team for felony warrant service, drug deal takedowns, and any other area that might involve weapons if we could anticipate it. As a result our overall use of force dramatically declined (and officer injuries declined as well) and at the same time our SRT became very sharp since they were actually working as a team once or twice a week (most departments don't have the luxury of dedicated teams, they're staffed with officers drawn from regular duties only when needed - so many teams just don't see enough use to keep them really sharp).

A few years after the "Miami shootout" I was on scene once or twice with federal weapons teams and was impressed with how they performed. The sad truth is that most police policies are shaped more by disasters than thoughtful planning to anticipate future needs. Whether it's the "Norco incident", the "LA bank job", the "Miami shootout", Waco (or name your own fiasco) - afterwards you pick up the pieces, take an honest look at your shortcomings, and try to overcome them. What ought to worry everyone is the next serious incident that exposes one weakness or other that you never considered (what, airplanes full of people as weapons? no one would ever do that....).

The Ayoob Files: The Book.

[Yes, I am aware that some have called him out on inaccuracies. The lessons are the same, with or without the corrections, IMHO.]

Great book, discusses legal, tactical, and training mistakes. Some successes, too. Miami and Newhall are there; North Hollywood is not.

It is a difficult thing to write about SD failures, especially those of LEOs: you are liable to the criticism that you are dishonoring the dead by "Monday morning quarterbacking" them. Ayoob's columns ("The Ayoob Files" in American Hangunner magazine) have more recently concentrated on SD successes.

I'm not trying to monday morning quarterback on that point

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I see that kind of sentiment occasionally. Something along the lines of, "You weren't there, he was, he lived, so he did PERFECTLY and you all should stop criticizing him."

And that completely misses the point of our S&T forum. This isn't a place to cheer the good guys, boo the nasty baddies, and pat ourselves on the back for another dead criminal.

This is where we dissect what happened, compare and contrast how the event took place with the best instruction and training practice we have received, and contemplate what could have gone better or worse for the defender. Our purpose in doing so is neither to condemn or congratulate. It is to evaluate different approaches and learn what techniques might be likely to help us succeed if and when we face our own moment of need.

Amen....

Local event, very sparse on details.

http://theadvocate.com/home/1318500-125/br-man-slain-trying-to.html

I'm sure this guy put up a fight... but it wasn't enough.

The 46 year old man and the entire family were killed "by blunt force trauma" - specific instrument was not revealed.

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_14b710c8-a70b-11de-9beb-001cc4c03286.html

Happened a half hour from my home, in a town with a population of under 200 people.

The lesson can be gained from this is ... if you have a firearm keep it within reach.

The police were originally called when a "shot was fired" but the family was killed with a "blunt instrument". The assumption has to be drawn that someone in the family attempted to defend themselves with a firearm - unsuccessfully.

Police response time in rural areas can be 20+ minutes. That's an eternity if the wolves are at the door. There is no "calling 911 and wait for help to show up" when you live far outside of town. You fend for yourself, or not at all.

An unloaded weapon, or a weapon out of reach, isn't much use against a pissed off guy with a baseball bat - let alone, something worse.

I don't know.

Because 3 of the deceased were children, the police rightfully kept a tight lid on any information released (a fourth child survived in critical condition, 3 year old kid, unsure of the outcome on her).

So there's very little information beyond the initial reports. I *did* hear they had a person of interest, but have heard nothing more beyond that, and do not know if any arrests were made.

The incident made me re-evaluate my situation here, however. At that point in time, having five children I kept only one firearm loaded, upstairs next to the bed. However, we live in a 5 level house - so if I were in the basement, and a bad guy kicked in the front door, I would have 80 linear feet to travel, plus 26 stairs to climb (PAST the bad guy no less), to get to a firearm.

I've redoubled my training of my children. Three of them can use handguns now and can do so very proficiently. The two smaller girls have been taught NOT to touch firearms under any conditions - their job is to go hide, and they have specific places to DO so so I know where they are at (this gives me clear fields of fire). The older children are trained never to touch a firearm UNLESS someone enters the house and is a direct threat. They can go NEAR the firearms if they are scared (e.g., someone knocks while my wife and I are both away), but not to handle them unless it's necessary.

There is one loaded weapon on each level of the house now and they are situated so they are not close to the doors. This way if someone charges in, they can't close the gap between the firearm and us, before we have a chance to get to it.

Between the five of us who know how to shoot here, and the specific types of weapons I have, we very seriously out-gun the local police department that's 10 miles away - which recently hired an additional full time officer, so now they have a whole THREE cops available.

So, no need to wait around 20 minutes for help to arrive. We can handle ourselves.

Well, you could look at the Harold Fish case. The aftermath in particular, and especially if you want to see what happens when a prosecutor uses a slippery arguement, such as calibre and bullet selection (Mr. Fish had a 10mm Kimber I believe, loaded with some type of HP ammo). Long story short, convicted, exonerated, AZ law changed to prevent it from happening again. Mr. Fish successfully defended himself physically, but not so well in court it seems.

This one interests me the most of all, since the one time I have pulled my pistol on an individual I was in a very similar situation as Mr. Fish (there were witnesses though, but one was on the aggressor's side and one was on my side) and because I carry a 10mm frequently (it is just my favorite auto calibre like the .45 is for others). But Mr. Fish drew and the attack continued, I drew and the guy ended up backing down. Both occured in a secluded parking lot in the woods. Basically, I could have been Mr. Fish had the guy continued and the only difference would have been that I would have used a .357 and there would have been a witness for both sides (and my aggressor followed us to a secluded location and attempted to block egress, so that wouldn't have looked too good for him...).

Finding cases like this one are quite useful, as you can easily put yourself there, "It could have been me!" kind of thing. Finding cases where justifiable homicide went south in your own local area is also quite useful, as you can sort of figure out what to expect.

Trent said:

I don't know.

Because 3 of the deceased were children, the police rightfully kept a tight lid on any information released (a fourth child survived in critical condition, 3 year old kid, unsure of the outcome on her).

So there's very little information beyond the initial reports. I *did* hear they had a person of interest, but have heard nothing more beyond that, and do not know if any arrests were made.

The incident made me re-evaluate my situation here, however. At that point in time, having five children I kept only one firearm loaded, upstairs next to the bed. However, we live in a 5 level house - so if I were in the basement, and a bad guy kicked in the front door, I would have 80 linear feet to travel, plus 26 stairs to climb (PAST the bad guy no less), to get to a firearm.

I've redoubled my training of my children. Three of them can use handguns now and can do so very proficiently. The two smaller girls have been taught NOT to touch firearms under any conditions - their job is to go hide, and they have specific places to DO so so I know where they are at (this gives me clear fields of fire). The older children are trained never to touch a firearm UNLESS someone enters the house and is a direct threat. They can go NEAR the firearms if they are scared (e.g., someone knocks while my wife and I are both away), but not to handle them unless it's necessary.

There is one loaded weapon on each level of the house now and they are situated so they are not close to the doors. This way if someone charges in, they can't close the gap between the firearm and us, before we have a chance to get to it.

Between the five of us who know how to shoot here, and the specific types of weapons I have, we very seriously out-gun the local police department that's 10 miles away - which recently hired an additional full time officer, so now they have a whole THREE cops available.

So, no need to wait around 20 minutes for help to arrive. We can handle ourselves.

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Why not just carry in a holster while you're home? It's more accessible and more secure.

Some common types of failure might not be reported or highlighted for the most part, but are visible if you read between the lines.


Many people fail to manage their personal space, or fail to notice threats even with sufficient warning.
Many people give up after being shot or outnumbered or even just threatened.
Many people fail to do SOMETHING (just about anything is better than nothing) and waste valuable seconds.
Many times people get tunnel vision and do not focus on secondary threats or "+1s."
Many people fall down, stumble, trip, or otherwise work against rather than with the environment of the incident. In a similar vein many people fail to have a sufficient understanding (due to lack of observation) of their environment prior to the initiation of the incident, which of course is detrimental to executing their priorities once the fight is on.


This kind of thing in general is much more common and harder to pick up from typical documentation - as it usually requires either quality footage, or the "good guy" to self-report in a way that acknowledges his poor decision making, which may not even be possible if it was a lack of understanding that caused him to go wrong in the first place - than concrete "tactical" errors involving movement during a firefight, or order of picking targets, etc. JMO.

Scroll down to see - "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" at http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

The report details the circumstances of each murder (Click on a year then on "Summaries of Officers Killed" link.)

Mr.Davis said:

Why not just carry in a holster while you're home? It's more accessible and more secure.

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Occasionally, sure. We don't have concealed carry in Illinois, so I don't frequently carry on my person.

When I had my gun shop, I'd wear a firearm daily. At first, I didn't - until I'd heard about a local FFL that was shot in the head and killed in a robbery. From that day on both Charles and myself wore a sidearm at all times while working. (Charles and I worked the shop together).

Holsters aren't always more convenient at home, especially if I'm lounging around on a rainy Saturday afternoon in my undies typing on gun forum...... ;-)

Just a random thought...

I recently saw 44 minutes, the movie about the north hollywood shooting, and had to silently endure all the anti-gun sentiment. Funny that no one ever said "thank god we live in a country were when outgunned we can go to the store and get what we need." Imagine had that happened in England and more people died as a result of the police having to wait for more and more escalation in terms of officers being called out.

Funny that no one ever said "thank god we live in a country were when outgunned we can go to the store and get what we need."

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Sadly, those guns were never used in the fight.

Clerk killed by second robber while shooting at first robber.
http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/arrests-made-in-liquor-1149887.html

If mentioning Harold Fish, then mentioning Eric Scott might be in order.

Darrell Robinson shot and killed a man on top of his wife when he found them in his home and after his wife yelled she was being raped. She wasn't.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=268258&highlight=ccw+killed

Then there is Brandon McKown in the Tacoma Mall.

Chai Soua Vang Wisconsin hunter incident.

Bear hunter killed by partner trying to save him from a bear
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44648280/ns/us_news-life/#.Tn4odRwRfgE

Stupid BIL shot while faking a break-in on his BIL
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=328323&highlight=mistaken+identity

Off duty cop shot as suspect when trying to apprehend suspect
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145880&highlight=mistaken+identity

Woman shot husband she thought was an intruder...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96617&highlight=mistaken+identity

Very insightful thread. I'd like to see this one grow with some more real-world instances. Reading those articles and the posts in here has taught me some stuff I was ignorant to. Very good food for thought and a new platform for personal growth.

In my era (1973-1995) in south Florida the two worst assault failures by officers each involved three officers killed by a single assailant. In one the subject fired from ambush with a shotgun - in the other the assailant went hand to hand with three officers, took one of their sidearms and finished all three....

Here's the sequence of the first one that I'm fairly familiar with.... Dets Hodges, Curlette, and De Azevedo were working auto theft in a case that involved selling stolen cars with an accomplice at a tag agency (they had a list of folks that had bought the cars...). In good weather at mid-morning, they found one of the cars parked on the street in front of a small apartment building, examined it, then went to the building manager to see which apartment the car's owner lived in. Since this was a two story building that faced the street the detectives were being observed by the offender (and typical for that era each detective was in plain clothes openly carrying their sidearms and obviously cops...).

As the first detective walked up to the apartment door he was shot from ambush, the second was shot on the stairs before he could react.... The third detective, DeAzevedo took cover, called it in, then pursued on foot as the subject fled. During the foot pursuit, the offender stopped then turned around and killed the remaining detective with a single shot from his shotgun. It was widely believed in the police community at the time that DeAzevedo's death was avoidable and was simply a case of "tombstone courage". The offender was hunted down and killed within the hour.

The second involved an unarmed man at night being arrested by several officers. In a fierce struggle he overcame two officers by force, then took one of their weapons. He managed to kill those two and a third as well (actually sticking the handgun up inside one officer's vest to be sure of a killing shot), before fleeing on foot. He was later apprehended and sentenced to death (can't say whether the penalty was ever carried out since it would have been after I left police work).... This incident occurred long before Tasers and similar items were commonly available to officers.

Police trainers constantly work these kinds of incidents into their in service and officer survival training routines. They're examined over and over again to see where things could have gone differently, etc. They don't occur very often, but when they do it's heartache for everyone involved.

It is clear from these stories that people both civilian and LEO can become quickly overwhelmed by events. It's seems to me that speed kills and protects. In a home invasion the assailant has the upper hand, he has prepared and picked the time. You have to be really mentally prepared and suitable equipped to handle a sudden door kicker or lucky or both. We had a LEO recently who pulled his sidearm and the assailant closed the distance on him, shot the LEO in the chest, thankfully the vest did its job. Other LEO's shot and killed the man. Armchair quarterbacking this it appears the LEO hesitated and almost got himself killed.

Or he may have forgot to take the safety off.

There's no substitute for training, so you don't have to think.

Whenever I practice at the range, I'll start with a safety (if present) ON so that it becomes second nature to disable it before firing. Pin shoots, IDPA, doesn't matter.

Whenever I shoot a weapon (even a bolt gun I'm single loading) I'm patterned now to feel the safety before acquiring a target.