Bad Eyes and Old Guys Self Defense Techniques?

[Roundeyesamurai]

Many of the world's top authorities, including those below, actually do see the benefits of single index laser sighting...for many applications.

This, incidentally, is directly taken from Crimson Trace's promotional materials.

Read on:

It's a marketing video, using some well recognized shooters and LE personnel. Wonder how much CT paid them for their endorsements? I'm sure most of not all of them were paid to attend and promote the product, and didn't just fly in at their expense. If you can prove they went on their own dime and were NOT paid for the footage and comments, I'll listen.

Otherwise it is not any more viable than Jordan selling some sneaker brand for money in an endorsement.

Bingo.

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Fact is that P&S works slick at CQ distances with an appropriate gun and some common sense.

No it doesn't; and thankfully, nobody believes that it does, either.

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If there was one technological solution to every tactical problem, we'd all be able to run down to the local gunshop and buy the necessary gadget to solve whatever problem we face.

Unfortunately the real world isn't like that at all.

Badda-bing.

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There's been a lot of criticism here, but most folk...especially the experts/trainers...have 'not' offered up a viable solution for the pervasive problem of Bad Eyes and Old Guys. That's very disappointing.

Yes, they have, YOU JUST IGNORE IT!

The ONLY statement that you want to hear is "Lasers are a perfect solution to the problem". Since NOBODY with half a brain will make such a statement, especially not the experts who have responded to you, then you're just going to continue to sulk.

BTW- How about responding to the questions posed to you?

 

[7677]

If there was one technological solution to every tactical problem, we'd all be able to run down to the local gunshop and buy the necessary gadget to solve whatever problem we face.

Unfortunately the real world isn't like that at all. Lasers allow you to engage the target accurately from unconventional positions, but they don't do a thing for helping you ID the target. And if you haven't mastered grip and trigger control, you'll miss with a laser just like you do with iron sights.

Reflex type sights or oversized and illuminated sights have the same disadvantage laser sights do in that they don't help you identify the target.

It seems to me that the shooter with poor eyesight has two problems:

One, positively identifying the threat while it's still far enough away to react.

Two, being able to use a sighting system to engage the threat.

You can buy technology to assist with both problems, but it without training in the same skills any other shooter has you're just wasting your money.

Jeff

Jeff,
Great post regarding gadgets. Food for thought, my father can see his sights but he cannot focus on them as they are very blurry but he has better sight at 25 yards then I do. So there are times when the shooter may have the ability to identify the threat at distance but can not get a clear sight picture. In this case a laser may have merit.

My personal belief is to train for the worse case situation and have the ability to deal with close quarters as well as long distance threats. This includes point shooting and sighted fire. Lasers IMHO are not necessary on the average person’s carry gun. I have played with lasers which included FoF and laser did not speed up but slowed down the time it took me to put shots on target. Case in point, out to 7 yards, I use threat focus shooting because it allows me to move and requires the least visual input/thought to make the shots. I focus on the spot I want to hit and shoot and the rounds hit where I’m looking. I can do this on paper targets or with FoF and I can do it on the move and the target is on the move too. However, with a laser I’m always looking for the dot, and when you add shooter and target movement it takes longer to pickup the red dot process the red dot is where I want it, if not adjust, then shoot.

Again I believe that lasers do have their place and use however for most shooters the laser is a technological band aid for non-existent or poor training.

Skyguy you are entitled to your opinion and that I respect however the comment about where are the THR Cirillo’s made me laugh because if you had the real world experience he did you could use your own name. Funny, when I speak of what works and what doesn’t it comes from my person experience and knowledge and I do not have to throw out other peoples names as I post mine.

I do not need Cirillo to tell me what works in a gun fight I know and I have used what works in gun fights and every one of them had their own unique circumstance that surrounded them and the method I used to solve them.

For those who wonder what rock I’ve crawled up under, I’m sorry I haven’t posted in a while but work has kept me very busy and will continue to for some time.

I will end my post just as I started it, Train, Learn, Apply. Train for the worse case situation, learn everything you can...fill the toolbox with tools, and apply the appropriate tool the get the job done.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Again I believe that lasers do have their place and use however for most shooters the laser is a technological band aid for non-existent or poor training.

Badda-bing.

For those who wonder what rock I’ve crawled up under, I’m sorry I haven’t posted in a while but work has kept me very busy and will continue to for some time.

Good to know you're still alive, bud.

I will end my post just as I started it, Train, Learn, Apply. Train for the worse case situation, learn everything you can...fill the toolbox with tools, and apply the appropriate tool the get the job done.

Exactly. No matter how easy someone desires us to make it for them, they still have to WORK for it and DO it.

 

[7677]

No matter how easy someone desires us to make it for them, they still have to WORK for it and DO it.

Ain't that the truth

 

[okjoe]

Dear New Yorkers,

Fact is anyone can say anything.

Fact is P&S works slick at CQ distances in good light or bad. No special stance-dance-laser-or-sights needed, and little or no training/practice is needed. Just point-n-pull rapid fire.

2002 - P&S worked then.

2004 - P&S worked then.

2006 - P&S still works.

IMHO, not bad for and old geezer who only shoots about 400 rounds total per year. Probably could/would do better if I practiced more.

Got more pics and even some home made vids on my site.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Dear New Yorkers,

Fact is anyone can say anything.

Fact is P&S works slick at CQ distances in good light or bad. No special stance-dance-laser-or-sights needed.

Remember, those targets were shot from TWELVE FEET!

Oh yeah, P-N-S works REAL SLICK at twelve feet!

 

[SkyGuy]

Skyguy you are entitled to your opinion and that I respect however the comment about where are the THR Cirillo’s made me laugh because if you had the real world experience he did you could use your own name. Funny, when I speak of what works and what doesn’t it comes from my person experience and knowledge and I do not have to throw out other peoples names as I post mine.

7677, you posted like an intelligent, informed gentleman. Thanks.
Maybe there's still hope for good advice from here for the average Joe who might have bad eyes or is old/feeble/infirm.

Since you brought it up, I also speak from personal experience. Lots and lots of personal experience.
But this thread is not about you or me.

When I think that I've provided enough appropriate 'laser-sight' info....I will forward my bona fides...my background and credentials. Even a pic of me, my AB patches and ribbons and my Purple Heart along with my LE commission/documents/badge/award from my 10 year street life.

And yes, even at my age, I can still kick some serious butt (Nidan) and my eyes fail only at reading distance.
If you're really curious and don't want to stick your foot in your mouth, you can find some of my info in the locked thread at TFL-tactics-'front sight press and QK' w/4800 views so far.

But, back to the real issue:

With my method I can easily and reliably hit a 4" circle (about the size of your forehead) at 50 ft or less from retention or from above my head, out from my side and from behind cover, from my back, side, prone, around, over and under obstacles....in daylight, lowlight or darkness.

And anybody with basic skills can do that with a minimum of training;....mere minutes.
.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

OH GREAT! Seeing as how Skyguy has been asked for his oft-cited "credentials", now he's finally about to "release" them!

I will forward my bona fides...my background and credentials. Even a pic of me, my AB patches and ribbons and my Purple Heart along with my LE commission/documents/badge/award from my 10 year street life.

Brownie and I would LOVE to see this as well.

And yes, even at my age, I can still kick some serious butt (Nidan)

Nidan in what? Who did you train with? (This ought to be interesting).

With my method I can easily and reliably hit a 4" circle (about the size of your forehead) at 50 ft or less from retention or from above my head, out from my side and from behind cover, from my back, side, prone, around, over and under obstacles....in daylight, lowlight or darkness.

And anybody with basic skills can do that with a minimum of training;....mere minutes.

So, *your* method can be taught, IN ITS ENTIRETY, in "mere minutes"?

I'd LOVE to see video of this.

 

[okjoe]

For youse New Yorkers,

Per the NYPD SOP 9 study of some 4000+ police combat cases, the shooting distances in 75% of the cases was less than 21 feet.

I believe that all of the hits in the targets shown above would strike an average sized person at a distance of 30 feet. Get out you calculator, set up porportional statements, and do the math. The COM ones surely would, and at way more than that.

If you are just a plain old person who plans to get into, and trains 4 self defense gunfights at distances beyond 30 feet, you should also plan to spend some time behind bars.

Might also be a good idea to lay out some money for a rifle if there was a legitimate reason for such planning/training.

Did not know that NY apartments and rooms were so big.

Everyone in NY must live in an artists loft or a mansion.

My, My, My....

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

For youse New Yorkers,

Per the NYPD SOP 9 study of some 4000+ police combat cases, the shooting distances in 75% of the cases was less than 21 feet.

I believe that all of the hits in the targets shown above would strike an average sized person at a distance of 30 feet. Get out you calculator, set up a porportional statements, and do the math. The COM ones surely would, and at way more than that.

If you are just a plain old person who plans to get into, and trains 4 self defense gunfights at distances beyond 30 feet, you should also plan to spend some time behind bars.

Might also be a good idea to lay out some money for a rifle if there were a legitimate reason for such.

Did not know that NY apartments and rooms were so big.

Everyone in NY must live in an artists loft or a mansion. My, My, My....

John, it's time for you to stop clothing yourself in other's accomplishments.

LEGITIMATE pointshooters, such as myself, Matt Temkin, 7677, Brownie, etc., are a FAR CRY from you.

All of us have spent a lifetime working on this material. You spent your lifetime AVOIDING trigger time.

All of us have direct, intimate experience with point shooting. You do not.

Stop trying to sound like "one of us". Stop using the accomplishments of others to promote your crap. YOU are not a pointshooter. You're a hack.

 

[Jeff White]

ok..enough. This one is closed. Don't bother opening another pointshooting thread.

I'm on my way to work. If I can get some computer time, I will send all involved a PM about how we will conduct this discussion in the future. If not, I'll get one out when I get off work. Until then, no more pointshooting discussion and no more name calling.

Jeff