Bad Eyes and Old Guys Self Defense Techniques?

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Hello Skyguy,

I note that you have said that PS in poor light may not be so good. And that all one needs to do is to point the gun and shoot to hit a target.

I may not be quoting you exactly, but IMHO, just pointing a gun at a target and pulling the trigger will most assuredly get you a miss, unless you are a super shooter of some sort.

The SOP 9 establishes to a pretty good degree of certainty, that regardless of what method one is trained in, most will point shoot, and one handed, and miss like crazy. (The SOP 9 was a long term NYPD study of over 4,000 police combat cases. The NYPD did not teach how to PS.)

So what is one to do???

Well, one has to aim each shot.

And how best to do that given poor lighting and the probably loss of fine motor skills that are necessary to Sight Shoot, brings up PS, and it's various forms.

The one's currently being hashed, and rehashed on the web are: Quick Fire (US Army), Quick KIll (Lucky M. and Robin Brown and Co.), FAS (Fairbairn-Applegate-Sykes and Matt Temkin), and P&S (Walter J. Dorfner and some others and me).

Descriptions of them can be found on the web here and there or at

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/

or

http://www.pointshooting.com

For hash/rehash thread info, just look up point shooting vs sight shooting on most any forum.
 
So skyguy,

Where's all your advertisements for the laser when people have brought them into the discussion like here?

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193646

You repeatedly menioned them there, in fact, people thought you owned stock in the company or worked for them you pushed them so hard.

So one has to ask, where's your big push for the laser when it's mentioned here, like there? More improtantly, why have you NOT pushed them when mentioned here?

Interesting observation don't you think? Can you explain the lack of laser advertisments here like there?

One other question for you. You have several variations of threatfocused techniques? Interesting as well. Please explain which ones, who trained you in person if you would.

Or did you read a book, see a video and think you are qualified to comment on the various systems through those venues?

Robin Brown
 
I may not be quoting you exactly, but IMHO, just pointing a gun at a target and pulling the trigger will most assuredly get you a miss, unless you are a super shooter of some sort.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, but I believe that nearly anyone schooled in the basic use of their self defense handgun....given CQ distances and adequate lighting.....will absolutely hit a threat wherever they point their gun.

For effect, they just need to learn COM.

But the question remains; What about Bad Eyes and Old Guys?
 
SkyGuy said:
Which of the various self defense techniques is best for training people with bad eyes........and for training old guys?
Leave out the young guys with perfect vision, mobility and reflexes.

For example:
Someone trying to shoot a threat without their glasses or contacts, or in low light/darkness, or they are over 40/immobile/infirm/feeble/disabled, etc.
(from arm's length to about 50 ft.)

Of all the shooting techniques, which is the best self defense option for bad eyes and old guys?

I figure that with all the experts and trainers posting here, this is where I'll get 'the' definitive answer.
....or maybe nobody knows.
.
Click to expand...

The "old eyes" part I can answer definitively, due to the fact that I was diagnosed with an optic nerve disorder a couple of years ago.

1) As far as visual aids to making hits- enough people who have optically correct eyesight have a problem finding aiming aids under stress (sights, laser dots, etc.), and this is further complicated when eyesight is diminished.

For this reason, threat-focused shooting methods (pointshooting) make the most sense for a person with diminished eyesight.

Come on over and have a look at Threat Focused Forums (http://www.threatfocused.com/forums), and see what exactly is available.

And, don't confuse OKJoe with the rest of us.

2) Lasers don't illuminate targets. They place a little dot on a target. If the problem is "not being able to see the target", then you'll need to illuminate it.

Use a flashlight.

3) Big Dots aren't a bad idea for shots over 10 yards.

4) As far as the "old guy" portion of the question- those who are less reasonably capable of using physical force to defend themselves (small-statured women, the elderly, disabled, etc.), are given more lattitude to use deadly force. This principle is called "disparity of force".
 
Any shooter who uses corrective lenses to shoot would be well advised to practice shooting occasionally without them on.
Click to expand...
The weird thing is that I can actually see my gun sights better without my (normal) glasses than with them - it's the target that I have a hard time seeing clearly. But it probably wouldn't be a problem at self defense ranges.

I have some "desk glasses" that I use for computer and paperwork. For me that works better than having to put up with bifocals all the time. Bifocals wouldn't help for shooting anyway ... you can't hardly look at the target with one part of the lense and the sights with another :rolleyes:
 
I cannot say what others might do, or even should do, but here at Casa Lapin there is no downstairs. The sound of breaking glass followed by voices at night anywhere in the house would mean someone with less than honorable intentions made their way through the fences/gates and onto the property, and then actively broke into the house.

The sounds of breaking glass and voices would be quickly followed by the sounds of snarling, screaming and scuffling once the dog arrived on the scene- adult Brazilian mastiffs notoriously dislike strangers, no matter how they arrive (that's why we have one). I addressed the breed on a resurrected thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=47392 not long ago (Post 72 and subsequent), if you are interested. I believe in having a dog as part of the household, whether a protective breed or a tailwagging mobile burglar alarm doesn't matter much. A good dog is a big help in lots of ways.

If the dog is neutralized and intruders are still active in the house, see the
thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=128814 starting with post #35 and subsequent. That is the plan, pretty much by the book. Note that it is in the Shotgun sub-area, while there are handguns in the house, the go-to gun here is a shotgun loaded with 00 buck with slugs on board also.

I encourage use of a saferoom or barricaded defensive position containing all family members who are at home when trouble breaks in, to avoid as much rooting around the house in the dark as possible. I encourage developing as much of a unified family emergency plan as possible covering common aspects of what to do in case of a fire (statistically much more likely) or break-in. I encourage practicing the plan to include all family members so that everyone knows what to do in case of a real emergency.

hth,

lpl/nc
 
Shotgun..............double barrel.....#2 shot......

Aline barrels on shape in doorway and pull both barrels........I am hearing impared and blind without my glasses. I point shoot with a shotgun and aim with a pistol........At my place in the country, my AK is with me always.........chris3
 
Crimson Trace grips are an excellent suggestion. I'd like to add that those of us who are aging often benefit from a larger front sight like the one marketed by Ashley Outdoors.

I wear contacts and use reading glasses. I'm ok at home defense distances without my contacts though. I think everyone who wears any type of corrective lenses and plans on using a firearm for defensive purposes needs to go to the range without them and see what they are capable of.

Jeff
 
Without my glasses at the longest distances described I would probably shoot the BG and maybe some others in the general vicinity. I can determin shapes and can easily hit them. BUT does that give me the OK to use Leathal force? What would the rest of you do? Don't think this is unique to those over 40 or 50 or with bad eyesight. Have at it in the dark once, Or in a low lit crowded bar. What do you think you see? What do you think you shoot at. You shoot at muzzle flashes and shapes or you don't shoot and take your chances. There's more than just "best technique" to this question. .
Jim
 
I think it goes without saying that you don't shoot at a target you can't identify. If your vision reduces your IFF range to a range that is less then you could hit a target at, then your engagement range is reduced to the IFF range.

Jeff
 
Lee Lapin,

I, too, have a shotgun ready and an unsocialized dog that can hear and smell danger/strangers long before I can. Very good ideas.
Plus, dogs are not only one of the best alarms, they're good company and they also help lower your blood pressure. :)

I like your home defense tactics. But I'm still searching for the basic tactical 'shooting' solution for Bad Eyes and Old Guys because a lot of confrontations occur in low light and darkness....away from home.
.
 
RES says:
threat-focused shooting methods (pointshooting) make the most sense for a person with diminished eyesight.
Click to expand...

Now 'that' I can agree with.

....and the simplest way to shoot the threat is with single indexed aiming (point shooting).

No fancy techniques that require dollars and time to master. Just a single index aiming technique....something mastered in minutes by anyone and that aids those with poor eyesight and those that may be feeble or infirm.

Something that puts the front sight on the target 'every' time even in low light or darkness.........if that were possible.

Sound good?
.
 
Skyguy I'm slightly puzzled at what you are after. If you are looking for a specific technique pick one and practice it. Repetition will exceed advantages that one technique or tool has over others. Repetition and confidence is what will give you the edge in a survival situation. If you like lasers buy one and practice. Practice from the draw to pullng the trigger. I do not believe there is a magical one method that you can hang your hat on. I believe most "experts" would agree. There is a reason SWAT teams are structured as they are. You have point men(the gunfighters) who use differing techniques. You have securing agents that cover flanks and you have snipers that cover all who enter. I feel you are not after a specific technique but may have an alternative motive for this post, if so say it. I won't waste anymore of my time.
Jim
 
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SkyGuy said:
Now 'that' I can agree with.

....and the simplest way to shoot the threat is with single indexed aiming (point shooting).

No fancy techniques that require dollars and time to master. Just a single index aiming technique....something mastered in minutes by anyone and that aids those with poor eyesight and those that may be feeble or infirm.

Something that puts the front sight on the target 'every' time even in low light or darkness.........if that were possible.

Sound good?
.
Click to expand...

That essentially describes almost any pointshooting method (with one or two noteable exceptions)- except for the idea of putting "the front sight on target every time"- this is sightless shooting we're talking about, after all.

"Put the muzzle on target every time" is what we're after, regardless of whether it's sighted fire, lasered fire, sightless fire, what have you.

The differences inherent in each method (since you brought it up in the other now-locked thread) are what make an individual method more suitable or less suitable to a given individual.

Likewise, those differences exist because different pointshooting methods have different applications. The only way to know about which application fits you best is to try them out.

There is nothing "fancy" about pointshooting methods (aside from the "fanciness" of your abilities); describing the various pointshooting methods as "fancy techniques" is entirely wrong-minded. Likewise, virtually all pointshooting methods can be learned very quickly (one day's instruction), so "requires time and dollars to master" is likewise a wrong-minded comment.

Having said that, though, I have to ask- you're the one who is comparison shopping for something that doesn't exist: A method that you can learn (presumably) without being in front of an instructor, and which requires (presumably) no training or practice to obtain. Such a thing doesn't exist.

And quite frankly, no gadget (such as a laser) will provide you a shortcut around the need to train and practice.
 
Please take the time to read through the linked thread posts by skyguy. He has something like 70+ posts on that site and close to 40 posts alone of those are pushing the laser in every post.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=193646

You ignoring me skyguy? Can't answer the questions I poised to you here? Cat got your tongue for some reason?

You denigrate threatfocused methodologies, tell everyone to save their money and just point and shoot and you can't tell any of us who you were trained by and in what threatfocused systems of the "about 6" you say you have been exposed to.

I'm with JMusic on this, what exactly are your intentions? Setting everyone up for the big push on the lasers again?

J, he doesn't have to buy a laser, he supposedly already has one on his 1911 which he can hit from any position, any angle, any lighting condition, etc, blah blah blah [ all usurped and taken from his postings on the link ]

Oh, and I'm taking the highroad, and letting everyone know exactly how your demeanor is on other forums for the members here. They deserve to know you and your previously compulsive nature regarding the use of the laser and then can question why to hell you have not pushed it here on these members like you did on that other forum.

Motives skyguy, it's all about motives, and yours are suspect so it's important to make the members here aware of your actions elsewhere. Do try to keep up with the questions, otherwise people might get the idea you are avoiding the issues laid out for them about you.

Of course you could apologize openly for your rude behaviour and comments to my instructors and myself and we could move on.

Robin Brown
 
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Hey guys, I'm trying to get people to think. Unlike a few here, I'm not trying to sell them something.

I'm trying to get some folks to analyze their eyesight or mobility issues and then plan the best method for their own self defense.
Surely, I have the answer or I wouldn’t have asked the question. But, I'd rather that folks come to the proper conclusions on their own.

A few people here are on the ad hominem trip again; appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason. I really don't want to play that game. My intention is to inform people and help to make handgun self defense viable for so many folk who don't shoot competitively or even routinely.

I'm asking you experts to drop the personal crap and just spell out your self defense solutions for the poor eyesight and mobility problems that so many shooters have.

Thanks!
.
 
"Hey guys, I'm trying to get people to think. Unlike a few here, I'm not trying to sell them something."

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=193646

If people look at that thread, they'll see you ARE trying to sell them something.

"Surely, I have the answer or I wouldn’t have asked the question."

Now we are getting somewhere, let me take a wild guess, the LASER is the answer to ALL their problems.:(

If you have the answer, why don't you just share it with the members here? Then they can decide if you DO or DO NOT have the answer to your own questions.

You made it very personal when you posted your considerable rantings about myself and my instructors. I on the other hand am only interested in people understanding your demeanor in other posts elsewhere so they can decide, like so many did in the linked thread, that your were compulsing on something and had agendas of your own to the point you were being asked if you had stock in CT or worked for them.

BTW- you haven't answered the question of your "training" in threatfoucsed methods that you claim to have. Like the names of the systems, your instructors, etc. Still waiting on that one, but you seem to want to ignore the questions and accuse me of ad hominem behaviour.

The truth if you would please sir, it is only fair if you are going to denigrate what it is I and my instructors do openly, to inform the members here of your own training in the systems you say you have trained in so everyone can determine if you really know what you are talking about or if you realy have an alligator mouth and a hummingbird bum.

Inquiring minds want to know. Dates, instructors, systems you have been trained in where threatfoucused methodologies are concerned.

Robin Brown
 
Matt:

Or perhaps it can be said that many shooters can reach the same conclusions via varying venues?
Click to expand...

Finally we are on the same page. Whew, it's about time.
 
Blind as a bat without trifocals

this thread and the other closed thread on point shooting have made me do some serious thinking.

I like it when I get to thinking.......means I've seen something from a new perspective.

I never thought about dropping my glasses if I had to go for the gun. For that matter, I never thought of putting them on either. I keep them pretty far out of reach 'cause my dog likes to chew them.

When I was a drill instructer at Ft Dix, the Army introduced a point shooting method with BB guns that was incredible. Guys who trained us were shooting dimes without sights, dimes thrown in the air I might add. I never got that good, but had a couple of times in Vietnam when I did in fact loose my glasses, and had to use my weapon for defensive fire. All I can say is I made it home, so something worked. I noticed myself crouching down, firing at shapes and movement. I drill the same way now on occasion at the range, and I'm so short, that when I squat down and point shoot at a silhouette target, I get almost all groin hits. I figure that should do the job, unless I shoot too low.

This has given me a lot to think about. I will definatly get a set of the new Crimson Trace grips for my 640 .357. If something is going to happen outside the home, I'll have that with me.

If something happens inside the home, especially at night, I think I'm good to go. I've been trained in getting woken up in the middle of the night getting shot at since I was 18. I still expect it every night. I think I can handle it.

We used to think..."yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, because I'm the evilest SOB in the valley. That worked when I was less than 30, but now I'm heading to 60 real quick. I guess I have to face the fact that the time might come that I can't produce the violent explosive outburst required to defend myself if needed. This thread lets me see some ways to deal with that.

Go back and forth on this issue some more guys. Stay civil if you can, but I'm glad to hear many sides, and then pick what I think will work best for me. I've already taken my glasses on started pointing my .45 around the house.....I think I'm ok for a few more years.

Bil 20/400
 
"When I was a drill instructer at Ft Dix, the Army introduced a point shooting method with BB guns that was incredible. Guys who trained us were shooting dimes without sights, dimes thrown in the air I might add."

Yes sir, you were trained in Lucky McDaniel's instinct shooting system for long guns back then. I know well about the bbguns and the dimes. I was trained by Lucky himself and did hit dimes out of the air back in 81 when I met up with him.

Good system to know and one that apparently kept you above ground in a tight spot a few times. Thanks for your service to the country. Never forget

Robin Brown
 
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