Bad Eyes and Old Guys Self Defense Techniques?

[SkyGuy]

depicts:
This has given me a lot to think about. I will definatly get a set of the new Crimson Trace grips for my 640 .357. If something is going to happen outside the home, I'll have that with me.

Excellent decision and welcome to 21st century technology.

I suggest that you practice point shooting from arm's length out to about a car length or so. The laser sight can be used closer or in retention, but that's a matter of preference. The good thing is that it can be dialed in at about 20 ft and it's still right on out to about fifty ft. Farther than that, I'd say dig a hole or get the hell out of there.

Another great feature is that you can dry fire practice anytime, anywhere, day or night and you 'will' see where the point of impact is. Great for training! Great for reinforcement of proper technique.
That alone is worth the price.

As far as I know, this is about the best deal going. If somebody knows better help him out.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/610242003051.html
http://www.impactguns.com/store/610242000050.html
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[brownie0486]

Now it becomes clear to everyone;

You have no formal training in pointshooting anything, let alone "about 6" systems as you claim. Your voice is a non entity where threat focused shooting is concerned, you can't support your claims, so you ignore the questions.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=193646

On top of that you make claims others are using ad hominem attacks on you when anyone who reads that thread can see quite plainly I deferred the last word to you gratiously and you then came in to attack myself and my instructors afterwards.

Whats the matter, cat got your tongue?

Just as I suspected, alligator mouth and hummingbird bum. You sir are exposed for what you are. Now you can carry on and everyone can take you for what your opinions are really worth.

You have the answers? I think not.

Robin Brown

 

[Hook686]

1st off, if I am close enough to identify a serious threat to my life, and/or limb, then I am close enough to shoot it. If I can't see it, hear it, smell it, feel it, or tast it, then it will not be deemed a threat by me.

Once I've identified I have a serious threat, I realized a long time ago I am not going to out manuver, out jump, out twist a younger follow, so I don't even try. Folks that grab their gun and go out in search of that strange noise, or the brief glimpse of a BG prowling in the backyard are not something I care to try to match. Old and slow, I just pick a good sheltered spot (my back covered, in the dark, down low), where I just wait in silence.

It will either be a real serious condition, as I feared, in which case I'm in the best position I can have, or if I was just acting like a foolish old man, the time passes, and I will sooner, or later feel foolish enough to come out from under my log.

This approarch requires very attentive consideration of my surroundings at all times. If a scenario develops too quickly, or when I've not anticipated where I might "Hunker" down to, in a developing bad situation, then I reckon I'm just "Dead meat", cause I sure would not have a chance against even an old, out of condition, fat, and short, boy, or girl. The best defense for an old man, such as me, is not an offense, but rather avoidance in the 1st place ... situational awareness.

 

[SkyGuy]

Extremely good tactical advice, Hook686.

Thanks!

 

[SkyGuy]

Click and learn the following life saving info:

Shootout!​

http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv


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[brownie0486]

"Hey guys, I'm trying to get people to think. Unlike a few here, I'm not trying to sell them something."

There's that sales pitch of the laser you pushed on others, just like I told members you'd be doing eventually, and which you did so vehemently here:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=193646

Still waiting on those answers about your training in "about 6" threat focused methodologies.

Robin Brown

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Hey guys, I'm trying to get people to think. Unlike a few here, I'm not trying to sell them something.

No, you're here to insult pointshooting methods and instructors, and one method and instructor in particular.

A few people here are on the ad hominem trip again; appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason.

Firstly, anyone who uses the term "ad hominem" on an internet forum is a POS. Universal rule of the internet. Seriously, do a web search on any forum for the phrase "ad hominem" and you'll find that anyone who utters it is a complete arsehole.

Secondly, what personal considerations? I see only legitimate criticisms, from some fantastic shooters and instructors. The fact that they're not saying what you want to hear, is a demonstration of how wrong YOU are, not that "they're getting too personal".

 

[Jayb]

Not picking sides, and with NO agenda other than being proficient with my firearms, I'd pose the following ........keeping in mind that I'm 58, and wear trifocals...

IF my eyesight posed a problem with sight picture at self defense distances....

and IF the size of the laser dot is like those used on LEO weapons, Which I have had some exposure to....

that dot is not any easier to see in the daylight than the front sight post on my Kimber.....

what's the advantage in a system that enhances ones ability to acquire the target only at night? (in my opinion)

I've never even attempted to shoot MOA groups at 100 yards with my carry weapon, but even with my old eyes, I can cause a "person of interest" serious concern at 30 feet.....without lights, lasers, or such. I think the EOTech on my AR would better serve poor eyesight than a laser.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Not picking sides, and with NO agenda other than being proficient with my firearms, I'd pose the following ........keeping in mind that I'm 58, and wear trifocals...

IF my eyesight posed a problem with sight picture at self defense distances....

and IF the size of the laser dot is like those used on LEO weapons, Which I have had some exposure to....

that dot is not any easier to see in the daylight than the front sight post on my Kimber.....

what's the advantage in a system that enhances ones ability to acquire the target only at night? (in my opinion)

I've never even attempted to shoot MOA groups at 100 yards with my carry weapon, but even with my old eyes, I can cause a "person of interest" serious concern at 30 feet.....without lights, lasers, or such. I think the EOTech on my AR would better serve poor eyesight than a laser.

Very pragmatic post, JayB.

Unfortunately, I have discovered that the original poster isn't interested in pragmatism- in fact, from what I have seen, he's working up to making a post about the superiority of laser dots to all other aiming aides and methods- this comes from seeing several of his posts on another forum, where he was strenuously disabused of that notion.

Now he's brought it here, in search of "an expert" who will confirm it for him (fat chance).

 

[SkyGuy]

what's the advantage in a system that enhances ones ability to acquire the target only at night? (in my opinion)

Jaybe,

Over 80% of gun confrontations occur in low light and darkness. That is where laser-sighting is, indeed, superior to all other methods.

This thread is meant to deal with "Bad Eyes and Old Guys Self Defense"....and I can understand that your main interest is in markmanship and the sport of shooting.

Self defense is a large and problematic issue for many people with assisted or failing eyesight and for many older and perhaps feeble or infirm people.

My suggestion is that concerned folks learn the simple task of point shooting up to 20 ft...equip themselves with a laser sight for all shootout distances....and learn to sight shoot at all reasonable distances.
(Everyone should 'first' be trained in basic handgun safety and use.)

The above method is suggested by 'the' Jim Cirillo and many, many other credible self defense authorities. Plus, Lasergrips are in use by hundreds of local police depts, NATO and the US military. Even the Singapore Police ordered 10,000 Lasergrips for their duty pistols.

For your own edification...please check this out: Shootout!
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[Roundeyesamurai]

Jaybe,

Over 80% of gun confrontations occur in low light and darkness. That is where laser-sighting is, indeed, superior to all other methods.

This thread is meant to deal with "Bad Eyes and Old Guys Self Defense"....and I can understand that your main interest is in markmanship and the sport of shooting.

Self defense is a large and problematic issue for many people with assisted or failing eyesight and for many older and perhaps feeble or infirm people.

My suggestion is that concerned folks learn the simple task of point shooting up to 20 ft...equip themselves with a laser sight for all shootout distances....and learn to sight shoot at all reasonable distances.
(Everyone should 'first' be trained in basic handgun safety and use.)

The above method is suggested by 'the' Jim Cirillo and many, many other credible self defense authorities. Plus, Lasergrips are in use by hundreds of local police depts, NATO and the US military. Even the Singapore Police ordered 10,000 Lasergrips for their duty pistols.

For your own edification...please check this out: Shootout!
.

JayB, I told ya so.

SkyGuy, for the record (since you've avoided the question multiple times now), whom have you recieved pointshooting instruction from? Which methods and which instructors?

As far as lasers:

a) Just because NATO has a stock number for an item, doesn't mean "NATO uses it". It's a stock number, so it can be ordered through the supply train if someone wants one. NATO has stock numbers for quite a few lasers, incidentally, not just Crimson Trace.

Same with the US armed forces.

b) A third-world nation orders lasers for their police, and that validates it?

c) Some police departments in the US may authorize lasers, that doesn't mean they're "in use by" said departments. That means that individual officers are not prohibited from using one if they buy it themselves.

"Not prohibited" and "in use by" are two distinctly different terms.

You're starting to sound like laser equivalent of OKJoe.

 

[okjoe]

Hey roundeye,

Thanks for keeping on mentioning my handle if only to bash me alla inference or scarcasim or tone. Whatever.

Nice to know that you think enough of me and P&S, to keep mentioning it.

P&S is the most simple of PS methods and very effective, and particularly, so for those with aging eyes and abilities.

Hang a laser under the barrel, and hot digity dang, you would have a real go get em gun platform.

Here's a link to my site for anyone interested in P&S and other PS methods, and also, here is a pic of the P&S method being used. It works slick at CQ distances with an appropriate gun and a bit of common sense.

http://www.pointshooting.com

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

P&S which is the most simple of PS methods and very effective, and particularly, so for those with aging eyes and abilities.

Not a word of the above sentence is even remotely factual.

Hang a laser under the barrel, and hot digity dang, you would have a real go get em gun platform.

Remember that movie with Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels?

 

[Jayb]

Skyguy...... I can't be 100% certain, but I'd bet that you really enjoy disagreement. This topic is purley subjective, and is entirely up to the individual shooter. This is not a win/lose issue. You have every right to your opinion, as do the rest of us. You've stated your opinion(s), and if they suit you, fine. Your opinions carry very little weight with anyone except yourself. you will also find as you get older that unsolicited advice is rarely taken seriously.

This thread is meant to deal with "Bad Eyes and Old Guys Self Defense"....and I can understand that your main interest is in markmanship and the sport of shooting.

Gee, last time I learned anything, marksmanship was (AND STILL IS) a very important part of self defense.

The above method is suggested by 'the' Jim Cirillo and many, many other credible self defense authorities. Plus, Lasergrips are in use by hundreds of local police depts, NATO and the US military. Even the Singapore Police ordered 10,000 Lasergrips for their duty pistols.

Is that supposed to impress me????? Sorry, it ain't workin'.


Mods, I'm done with this thread, and I'll try not to be an a$$ any more than I feel the need to....

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Mods, I'm done with this thread, and I'll try not to be an a$$ any more than I feel the need to....

I hate to say it (again), but...

I told you so




OK, that's not true, I don't hate to say it!

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I have heard that some Lasermax's----the one that replaces the guide rod---has broken on sevearl occassions and has rendered the weapon into a $900 club.
Good enough reason for me to avoid it.
As to other lasers..
Some of my SWAT friends have informed me of multible lasers on a threat with no one exactly sure just whose laser is which.
As to ANY device--especially one powered by batteries--as a substitiute for good shooting skills----both aimed and point shooting----well. I will approach that horse with a good sense of caution.
Not to mean that a laser has no use, but when touted as THE SOLUTION I begin to squirm.

 

[sm]

True story.

When I first met Richard* I did not realize he was blind. I went into his home with a friend, whom did not tell me he was blind. Richard's wife let us in, seated us at the kitchen table and Richard brought over two cups of coffee he had poured for us, sat down and started visiting. No dark glasses, no "signs" of his blindness. He just got his smokes out of pack, lighted one just as easily as a sighted person would.

His hobby was tearing down and fixing lawmower and other small engines.

His sight was left in some hell-hole . He had been specially trained , and did that duty in his branch of Military service.

Richard had awareness and mindset. He also shared the adage one should always use ALL their senses, and yes some truth from his experience, the loss of one sense had increased his other senses.

I listened , and trust me when I share this man was one to learn from...

Out with his wife one night, some punks did not know Richard was blind, as stated he did not wear dark glasses, use a cane, any of the ususal things one associates with a person being without sight.

He noticed the punks before his sighted wife, and she was good at being alert, and aware. He not only had smelled trouble , he heard the shuffle of feet just around the corner to where an alley was. Richard being Richard, stopped, told his wife in a whisper to head to a business a few doors up. She did...before the business owner and employee could come out to assist, Richard had disarmed one punk with a pipe, and using it disarmed the other with a knife.

He smelled and heard the breathing pattern of the one more close ( pipe) and hence was in a defensive mode to defend himself, and the knife wielder gave himself away by voice (expletives and such).

Richard was out for his 64th B-day dinner when this incident happened.

Richard had been raised a certain way , had learned some things about blindness from a relative as he was growing up and before going to that hell-hole.
Add all the training he had growing up, awareness, and what Uncle Sam taught him...

Folks get complacent, take matters for granted, use too many crutches. They get so used to being dependent on sight, a gun, a knife, equipment, any and everthing -they let basic instincts, what nature gave them erode to where they either are not able to use them effectivley or they never developed them in the first place. Too easy to be blinded by stuff, than skills. -Richard

Richard would hear things in a restuarant, I would not, and I was there really trying to listen, because Richard was sharing and that was the sole reason for being there. Heck he "heard" under what rock the spare house key was hidden in the yard...even with buzz of a crowded restuarant.

Richard would say, "there is person, male, behind me, really nervous"...sure enough there was a guy looking into his wallet and not seeing the money he thought he had.
"Huh...how do you know?"
"Smells, there are different smells for fear, nervous, happy...just like critters in Mother Nature smell the smells to sense if something is a danger, or threat. Notice how they are not in storms, fires, floods...they sense and leave before humans do. Notice how a critter senses other critters, or humans..."

He smelled the guy being nervous and embarrassed. Guy's wife had his credit card, all was good, just for a bit, the nervous and embarassed was sensed by Richard.

In them hell-holes Richard not only used sight, he and his used all their senses to read a situation.

Richard could shoot. A tiny bell above a target , and by hearing , he would hit the target with small groups. I / we could verbally direct a target and he would hit it...even clays from a thrower with a shotgun. We would take him out hunting..."gonna be covey over that way about 20 steps...be ready boys", and by golly he was right. "By the sounds of it that deer is a doe, not a buck'...well once we actually saw the deer...again he was right.

I watched him move out of the path of Tueller drills too.

I later met a friend of Richard whom became deaf, he was older when hearing left him in a accident, he too had previous training, and he too never felt or allowed himself to be "prey". His other senses increased.

This thread is a great reminder for me, thanks for posting it.

Richard used to "read" rooms and various other situations, I too need not to get complacent, dependent on sight, equipment...

Regards,

Steve

*Name changed to protect privacy of family. "Richard" passed away, no incident, just normal cirumstances.

 

[SkyGuy]

mind that I'm 58, and wear trifocals...

You Jaybe, are the prime candidate for a single index...laser sighting system. You're an old guy that wears trifocals.

Consider the notion that you're being stalked in a low-light gun confrontation, you trip over your own feet and you've dropped your trifocals somewhere. What is 'your' plan to defend your life or loved ones?

Click here for:
Bad Eyes/Old Guys gunfight tactics.​

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[SkyGuy]

As to ANY device--especially one powered by batteries--as a substitiute for good shooting skills----both aimed and point shooting----well. I will approach that horse with a good sense of caution.
Not to mean that a laser has no use, but when touted as THE SOLUTION I begin to squirm.

Matthew......I'll assume that you looked at the linked videos with an expert's eye. What do you think?
Also, do you have a particular self defense technique for Bad Eyes and Old Guys?

And I emphatically say: Lasers are a merely a PART of "THE SOLUTION". So don't squirm.

Most people know that "good shooting skills---both aimed and point shooting" are a pre-requisite to self defense tactics. But, now technology has brought us a device that helps even the weak sighted and the old and infirm to aim and hit a threat....something that is very effective and can be learned in a matter of minutes.

I strongly suggest that you and other experts incorporate Lasergrips into your training regimen....or y'all may go the way of the buggy whip. We're in the 21st century and progress abounds.

I remain amazed at how some expert trainers refuse to get on the edu-train and offer the immediate tactical advantages of Lasergrips along with their particular style of self defense shooting. Absolutely amazed!!

Many of the world's top authorities, including those below, actually do see the benefits of single index laser sighting...for many applications.

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo....17 time gunfight winner, trainer
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......
U.S. Military and NATO forces....many law enforcement agencies
et al.......
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[brownie0486]

"My suggestion is that concerned folks learn the simple task of point shooting up to 20 ft."

Again, your comment about "the simple task of point shooting". Will you please explain your formal training in ANY pointshooting or threat focused methodology to our readers so that they may determine for themselves if you are qualified to make such statements of opinions as fact?

In that video, we see people shooting from their sides on the ground at targets. No problem, I can do the same thing with QK or my sights [ it was in broad daylight afterall, whats so special about that? ].

We hear Ernie Langdon mention he was threat focused and "didn't have to use my sights". No problem, people can do that in quite a few threat focused methods as well.

We see people on a firing range shooting from above their heads with the laser while out in the open, not behind cover or concealement [ apparently in a marketing attempt to prove some useless point about shooting over your head, which would never be used ]. Look at the particular scene again and tell eveyone how one would be shooting over their head that high without being able to visually confirm the threat to begin with.

We see another who is being covered from behind by a supposed BG who then turrets his upper body without moving his feet and pretends to shoot the threat [ an attempt to prove the lasers value inferencing it can't be done without one on your firearm ]. No problem, people have seen me do that in classes all the time as well. Nothing that can't be done WITHOUT the laser.

It's a marketing video, using some well recognized shooters and LE personnel. Wonder how much CT paid them for their endorsements? I'm sure most of not all of them were paid to attend and promote the product, and didn't just fly in at their expense. If you can prove they went on their own dime and were NOT paid for the footage and comments, I'll listen.

Otherwise it is not any more viable than Jordan selling some sneaker brand for money in an endorsement.

Some of the better known shooters seen shooting fast and accurately on plates and poppers using the laser. Thing is, they also shoot those same scenarios all the time in competition without the laser and in their training courses.

Just a marketing video to give the impression that one can't do most of the things seen without a laser, and of course they are wrong. Lots of hype and footage of shooting with their product to convince everyone they can't shoot most of the scenarios seen without one.

Now everyone really does understand your motives, which were spelled out clearly long before this push occured. As you stated, you had the answer before you asked the question, now we know what the answer was you had for us don't we?

All those names are right off the products site. I think if history is going to repeat itself with you, we'll eventually see every part of CT's site copied and pasted here by you.

Anyone want to take bets on this? Oh, btw-cat still got your tongue about your professional training in any threat focused methods you claim to have?


Robin Brown

 

[okjoe]

Youse guys from NY are the gift that just keeps on a giving:
.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by okjoe

P&S which is the most simple of PS methods and very effective, and particularly, so for those with aging eyes and abilities.

Response:

Not a word of the above sentence is even remotely factual.
..........

Fact is that P&S works slick at CQ distances with an appropriate gun and some common sense.

And best yet, you can prove it to yourself as fact using an airsoft gun or a real one at the range, that is if your mama will let you.

You don't have to take it from me, or believe me, or whatever.

However if you need help in understanding the pic below and what the signature line means, back off jack, and go with what you got.

And always use safe gun handling practices.

 

[Jeff White]

If there was one technological solution to every tactical problem, we'd all be able to run down to the local gunshop and buy the necessary gadget to solve whatever problem we face.

Unfortunately the real world isn't like that at all. Lasers allow you to engage the target accurately from unconventional positions, but they don't do a thing for helping you ID the target. And if you haven't mastered grip and trigger control, you'll miss with a laser just like you do with iron sights.

Reflex type sights or oversized and illuminated sights have the same disadvantage laser sights do in that they don't help you identify the target.

It seems to me that the shooter with poor eyesight has two problems:

One, positively identifying the threat while it's still far enough away to react.

Two, being able to use a sighting system to engage the threat.

You can buy technology to assist with both problems, but it without training in the same skills any other shooter has you're just wasting your money.

Jeff

 

[brownie0486]

Watched that video in slow motion again, the low light shooting where the shooter can see the target [ as well as the viewer of the vid ] is not in anyway enhanced by the laser.

The shooter can see the threat and his firearm, and that amounts to being able to hit the threat without the laser. Lots of low light, but not so low as to be a hinderance in seeing the threat or ones gun [ notice I did not say sights ] and thats all thats required to be threat focused and get hits just as quickly without the use of the laser.

Taubert states "it's a low light fighting instrument primarily and thats the beauty of it" -----notice the primarily in that sentence. If these guys are sighted fire shooters, they would appreciate the low light capabilities as they are not accustomed to firing with a threat focus. One who is accustomed to threat focus methodologies doesn't rely on sights [ nor should at the close ranges being shown in the vid ].

Then there's the guy firing what sounds like a pop gun on the range and he is clearly shooting slower than he could be as he is looking for the lasers dot on the target. Unnecessary time taken and if he was under a real threat reacting to real life and death, he would not be standing there looking for the laser[ and if he did, he would be taking incoming and likely die ].

Notice he is also standing still against multiple threats while firing? A very good way to end up cold in the ground as well. Just another observation to show that the marketing video is just that, staged firing that is an attempt to sell the product to the unsuspecting public and make them want to rely on the laser as a crutch even at times it would not be necessary to use as seen in the video.

Robin Brown

 

[SkyGuy]

There's been a lot of criticism here, but most folk...especially the experts/trainers...have 'not' offered up a viable solution for the pervasive problem of Bad Eyes and Old Guys. That's very disappointing.

Maybe a true expert will chime in with constructive advice for the average old guy and/or guys with bad eyes.

Here's my method:
The simple solution; a single index 'threat focus' laser sighting system.

 

[brownie0486]

"the experts/trainers...have 'not' offered up a viable solution for the pervasive problem of Bad Eyes and Old Guys. That's very disappointing."

When you find an expert in bad eyes and old guys let us know. I didn't know there were experts out there who specialized in bad eyes and old guys myself.

Maybe a google search will find one for you. Just type in "bad eyes and old guys", should be lots of experts and trainers that come up on that search

btw- cat still got your tongue on your stated training in threat methodologies?

What, no comments about the critique of the video which is YOUR solution? Surely you have some thoughts on the issues raised-just don't copy and paste from CT's website if you reply. Regurgitating and spewing forth from their site does nothing to further your credibility.

Robin Brown