Have you noticed, VZ 58s didnt sell well --

I agree with valnar in post # 9 above

The VZ on other hand uses a different mag

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So what? My SIG P220 doesn't take 1911 mags, my Kahr doesn't take Glock mags, and Rugers don't take Beretta mags. I don't understand the issue.

One could easily say that AK47's don't take Vz.58 magazines, which make the Ak inferior. After all, Vz.58 mags are technically better, so why does the AK get to be crowned King?

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Not buyiing the VZ.58 because it doesn't take AK mags is like saying to yourself:

"Self, I need a Ford F-250 pick-up truck with dualies to get my job done, but I'll buy a Datsun B-210 sedan because the tires are cheaper! In fact, I know where I can get some used Datsun B-210 tires almost for free, under a rotting tarp in the backyard! What a deal! See how smart I am!"

I think sometimes we're too smart by half. We put the cart before the horse. When it comes to guns that matter, we should always buy the best firearm with the best mags (and other needed accessories) that we can afford. Not only is the original price difference dwarfed by the price of ammo over time, but we always have a firearm that works properly and reliably. Sometimes, that is worth the price of your life or the life of a loved one.

Spence, if it's a vz-58 through a dealer for $450, it's 99% a Century made vz-2008. That does NOT mean it's trash, many shooters on my forum with vz-2008s are quite happy with them.

i don't see it having reliability equal to an AK.

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Well, the AK-47 is no longer in front line service with the country that invented it...the vz-58 is.
I think it vies for the title of longest serving mainline select fire rifle, as it was in service since 1958, and is only now being phased out for the CZ BREN 805. If it wasn't a reliable durable firearm, I doubt the Czechs would have waited long to dump them for something else. Mine has been more accurate and reliable than the AKM clones I used to own.
Before anyone gets upset, yes, the AKM is a good solid rifle, and I wouldn't run one down, but in my mind, from my personal experience, the vz-58 series seems to be a better rifle.

Most gun owners seem to have never heard of any VZ, and don't know what it designates.

Every owner who went from an AK-47 clone to the VZ-58 seems to prefer this milled sporting rifle from the Czech Republic. "Sturmgewehr" on YouTube really liked his.

Those who watched "The Road Warrior", and imagine that their neighborhood could easily have people with mohawks cruising around just to find gasoline (or food), might only trust the AK to function in such dusty, dirty conditions when their home is stormed in a scene resembling the Alamo.

A huge number of gun owners seem to be anticipating this extremely unlikely possibility, but such fears promote widespread sales of AK clones etc.

I gotta believe the VZ.58, being a better designed and built rifle than the old AK or its cheap clones, will be more reliable, with a modicum of care and cleaning. Same level of care we'd give any utility gun, truck rifle or what have you along those lines. I guess the issue of VZ.58 reliability is that it does not and cannot have the decades x millions of units reputation of the AK.

Where the old AK excelled, I hear (I wasn't present), was when given to totally untrained newbies or kids who took zero care of it. Or when given to poorly disciplined military regulars who might also be starved of funds, supply lines, spare parts and, frankly, decent officers. You can clean any gun with bits of rag, shoestrings and motor oil. In some armies, you won't, unless your officers make you. The makers of the original AK knew their soldiers and their officers.

Override is not wrong in his ultimate conclusion

Those who watched "The Road Warrior", and imagine that their neighborhood could easily have people with mohawks cruising around just to find gasoline (or food), might only trust the AK to function in such dusty, dirty conditions when their home is stormed in a scene resembling the Alamo.

A huge number of gun owners seem to be anticipating this extremely unlikely possibility, but such fears promote widespread sales of AK clones etc.

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BUT, for me, all the more reason I'd want a VZ.58 than an AK clone.

The Century VZs are high quality.

"the century vzs are high quality" you should buy one then

I did - twice!

oh yeah, since you say its high quality im gonna buy 3

Well, the AK-47 is no longer in front line service with the country that invented it...the vz-58 is.

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The country that invented the AK-47 now uses the AK-74 for frontline service which is essentially an AKM with a more modern caliber. The vz-58 is still in use because they can't afford converting them to fire the 5.56 nato. Ultimately though the Czech Republic intends to issue the CZ-805 BREN.

800 rounds through mine with out a hiccup.
What do you consider reliable?

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Please actually read my post.

Justin, the vz-58 has been available for a few years in .223 in the US and Canada, so they've been making them, where ya been, man?
The BREN 805 comes in 7.62x39 and .223, and the country is buying those now, as the contract was signed with CZ-UB a few years ago. It takes TIME to build that any rifles in one factory.
As I've said before and wil say again, BASED ON MY PERSONAL HANDS ON EXPERIENCE MY VZ-58 IS MORE ACCURATE AND RELIABLE THAN THE THREE AKM SEMI-AUTO CLONES I HAVE OWNED IN THE PAST. There, nice and loud so the guys in the back can hear, too.
You mileage may vary.

Justin, the vz-58 has been available for a few years in .223 in the US and Canada, so they've been making them, where ya been, man?

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Available in the US does not equate to standard issue for Czech army, to which i was reffering. My point is that the statement about the VZ-58 being in service by it's countries army unlike the AK47 is misleading due to the fact the the only reason the 47 is not standard issue is the 74 replaced it.

the cz 805 bren has been gradually issued already to the czech army since mid to late last year. keep in mind the 805 is able to shoot the 7.62x39/5.56/6.8 at the change of a barrel and other stuff to shoot that particular round

I've heard good things about the VZ-58 and the VZ-2008, but I frankly think they're ugly. The Czechs, at least in part, deliberately made it completely incompatible with standard AK parts as an act of defiance. I wouldn't mind so much if it at least had a siderail so you could mount optics, but after experience with a WASR underfolder (which I later sold) I decided I'd never buy another AK-like gun without a siderail. If I can't scope it, all that extra accuracy and other refinements are useless to me. That's why I bought an SGL-21.

3 of my romy ak variants all have side rail mounts, thats one of the reasons i bought cugir type aks at a good price, thats why i skipped the arsenals. as for the vz58 not having side scope mounts, maybe they dont need too maybe they shoot better without them. but ive seen some czech soldiers abroad fielding thier rifles with railed frong hg/reddots which i think is sufficient enough, i have one on my vz and is pretty accurate and easy to see the reddot. cant wait for the vz58 in .223 to come out i beleive they will have sidscope mount, and mag adapters to accept m16 mags, now that i will buy over any saiga/arsenal anytime of the day

3 of my romy ak variants all have side rail mounts, thats one of the reasons i bought cugir type aks at a good price, thats why i skipped the arsenals.

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Arsenals do have side rails.

cant wait for the vz58 in .223 to come out i beleive they will have sidscope mount, and mag adapters to accept m16 mags, now that i will buy over any saiga/arsenal anytime of the day

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I thought they were already out? Czech point lists them as out of stock though. They don't appear to have side rails from the pics but i thought a side rail could be installed on any VZ 58? If they do truly have an AR adapter that would be nice so long as the last round bolt open still works. AKs in 5.56 with AR mag adapters are reported to tear up followers.

Maybe I missed it. But can anyone tell me anything about the Vz accuracy compared to that of the AK? This would be the major selling point for me. I have had 3 AK's, I currently am down to one. a early serial number Arsenal. I have loads of ammo and was kind of thinking about another AK. But....If the Vz can bring more to the target then I would jump.

My WASR 10 couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at 100 yards. The Hungarian folder I had in Cali in 1989 was somewhat more accurate than that. The Norinco version I had in 84/85 could hit a man sized target at 100 yards, but at that age I was less interested in accuracy then the cool factor.
As for rails, yes, Czechpoint-USA can equip your rifle with a side mount similar to the Romak version, and an over the receiver mount. Or you can buy it and install it yourself if you wish.
The AR-15 mag adapters are on the way, and will allow the use of GI spec AR-15 magazines. With a little luck, I'll be able to show pictures of one in a little while.

Rut, thanks for the checkpoint website. their asking $799 ,thats too steep for me right now. Armoredman, thanks ror the info on the century 2008 . I think I will tell the shop to order one

I picked up my vz58 from czechpoint a few years back and it has been a fine rifle. I am still not convinced that it is worth the extra cost over your standard AK. I like the 58 just was a pricey option for a 762x39 delivery platform. I am still looking for the 58 in 556 that was supposed to have hit the market over a year ago.

MY VZ-58 IS MORE ACCURATE AND RELIABLE THAN THE THREE AKM SEMI-AUTO CLONES I HAVE OWNED IN THE PAST.

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A wars, a hungarian, and a norc, not exactly the creme de la creme of of AKs. I would put more stock in your statement if your 3 AKs were: a vepr, a saiga (arsenals included), and a vector. Its like saying my 3 ARs weren't very reliable, I had a Hess, an oly, and a del ton.

I have no doubt the VZ is a good rifle. I highly doubt it out shoots a saiga or a vepr and particularly using cheap ammo (which IME is the limiting factor in the russian guns). I highly doubt one is going to see much meaningful difference in accuracy if one is shooting both with wolf, using open sights, and shooting from field positions. The VZ has some nice features and I like them, but an AK is easier to bring into the 21st century if one is after maximum functionality. Given the prices I've seen VZs going for I believe dollar for dollar one could have a more functional rifle using a saiga as a base.

Sorry, Gordy, that's what I had, and I think two of the brands you mention weren't even around back then. If you doubt me, go right ahead, it's just the internet. I have said numerous times in many discussion threads that it's great we have such a diverse selection of firearms, handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc., so everyone can find what they like. I think I got a pretty darn good rifle for a decent price.
BTW, I don't shoot Wolf, I load my own. If someone wants to bring a Saiga or Vepr to the range I go to, with whatever ammo you like, we can try them out side by side?
PS, took a quick look on GunBroker, cheapest 7.62x39mm Vepr was $800. Do they sell cheaper new somewhere?

Gee, I should start a thread about how poorly Glocks are selling... KIDDING!!!

Didn't the VZ58 never get imported much, thus inflating prices?

f you doubt me, go right ahead, it's just the internet.

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I don't doubt you that the VZ was more accurate than those guns. What I am suggesting is that a number of AKs are also more accurate than those variants thus it is not merely a design thing but a matter of execution as well.

Are you suggesting that you think a VZ is really going to be more accurate than a vepr? I don't live in AZ or I would love to take you up on your offer, I'm sure it would be fun. What kind of accuracy do you get with your VZ. What kind of accuracy from field positions? What kind of accuracy with an optic? IIRC you have an eotech on your gun. Oh and I am talking consistent 5-10 shot groups, not three round groups and certainly not cherry picked 3 round groups. A 1.5-2 MOA rifle might shoot the occasion .75 MOA group but that does not make it a sub MOA gun. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what any of My AKs will do as apart from zeroing them I've not really shot them for groups. I have bolt guns and ARs if that is the order of the day. I hope the question above don't come across as challenging or accusational, I'm genuinely curious. Like I say I like VZ, even if I'm not convinced that it is any better than a good AK, particularly a purpose built one.

PS, took a quick look on GunBroker, cheapest 7.62x39mm Vepr was $800. Do they sell cheaper new somewhere?

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Yes. They are $700 new at a number of places, Atlantic and Classic Arms for example.

Can VZ 58s be had for less than this?

http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com...ter_With_Folding_Stock_7.aspx?&w=pq+jdyolrqe=

or this

http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/m...odid=1344&thisitem=cz vz-58 military sporter

These were the first two places google gave me.

I know the VZ 2008s are cheaper but I must admit I do not know enough about them to know if the price difference is a reflection of function or something else. I know the century guns are not chrome lined.