Red Dot versus Bullseye...burn rate

So in 1995, Alliant thought that Bullseye was faster than Red Dot, and they still think so in 2012. If that's their stated opinion, I guess I'll accept it. I do like their powders.

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For over two decades i have requested the manuals from hercules/alliant every year and they have always claimed that bullseye is faster than red dot. In fact bullseye is too fast for shotshell loading except with very light weights of shot such as 3/4 oz. in the 12 ga.

Evidently I'm missing something here with the RD BE who's faster. If you look at the Alliant 2005 powder guide in the pistol and revolver load section it looks to me like RD is faster than BE. Almost EVERY load in every caliber ( couple of exceptions) show RD maxing out pressure at less load weight than BE with the same bullet. To me that says RD is faster than BE. To my mind when less powder equals less velocity and equal or more pressure that's the faster powder

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This is one of the reasons that every powder manufacturer warns us not to use burning rates as a loading guide. I assume this has something to do with pressure spikes which is a subject i don't understand.

When you look up "spikey" or "unforgiving" in the dictionary.........Clays and Titegroup ought to be listed as examples.

Bullseye is very fast burning but very stable and predictable in performance. As charge weights go up in small increments, pressure goes up in small increments.

As far as burn rate.......if Alliant says Bullseye is faster than Red Dot, I believe them.

I've tried E3 powder in 45acp and I think it's faster than them both, but I like it.

Bullseye is a little slower than Green Dot. But it is higher in energy than any other powder (5158 kJ/kg, when most others are in the low 4000's) so it gets pushed higher on the burn rate charts. They call it "Relative Quickness".

I use both for handgun loads, and haven't noticed a difference.

As far as burn rate.......if Alliant says Bullseye is faster than Red Dot, I believe them.

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If BE is faster why can you use more of it than RD in any given load according to Alliants own data?? Example 158 grJSP in .357 mag: BEmax6.8 grs/1250 fps/33.1KPSI.........RDmax 6.0 grs/1160 fps/33.4KPSI. Obviously the RD is faster. The same conditions,less powder and more pressure. This is not an isolated example in their powder guide. What is rare is finding a pistol load( in their guide) where the RD load exceeds the BE load for ANY pistol caliber. Slower powders generally give higher velocities (not always but usually) and require more powder weight to do it. For 99% of the pistol loads in the Alliant guide it is just the opposite, the BE load is the higher velocity with a higher charge weight. The RD loads max out on pressure before attaining BE's velocities with the same bullet weights. I don't know why Alliant says BE is faster than RD but their own Pistol/Revolver load data shows RD faster than BE 99% of the time and I think that's why the Hogdon burn rate chart says it's faster also.

I don't read much load data but from me developing my own Red Dot is faster. Good clean burning powder & very bulky but doesn't that normally make it faster? More surface area = faster.

If BE is faster why can you use more of it than RD in any given load according to Alliants own data?

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Red Dot acts faster than Bullseye in the applications I have tried both, and Bullseye seems to be more forgiving. That is my experience, for whatever it's worth.

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I then would ask if rd is faster then why is it a winner with shotshells loads from 7/8 to 1 1/8 oz, but bullseye is only useable in loads containing 3/4 oz to an extreme of 7/8 oz?

Every Hecules and alliant manual i have ever obtained over the years has always stated that bullseye is faster. I don't know how powders react when confined in certain spaces as far as pressure spiking is concerned or what causes it, but perhaps an alliant tech could explain it those interested. Alliant places bullseye as their fastest burning powder while they place red dot fourth on the chart and let us not forget that they are the manufacturers of said powders and they test every single batch of it and too they have very expensive testing equipment so who are we to second guess their expertise testing?

While i don't currently use bullseye i have burned many a pound of red dot and green dot in handgun and shotshell ammo and the fact that bullseye is too fast to carry over to shotshell loading is the main reason i don't use it. In fact alliant does not even claim it suitable for even light loads in shotshells.

but doesn't that normally make it faster? More surface area = faster.

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No that makes it slower. An example would be in 700x and 800x these are the exact same powders, but 800x is in larger flakes so that it burns slower and is useable in heavy and magnum loads.

Cant testify about burn rates, but I've used a lot of both and been pleased each time.

The models in the library in Quickload make Red Dot get higher velocity and higher pressure with a lower charge than Bullseye.

Shooting 45 and 50 cal rifles with compressed charges of 1 gr or 1.2 gr of Bullseye to keep under the threshold of super sonic gas escapement may not have been optimum [trying to get the peak pressure and the velocity up]. I am going to do some Red Dot experiments.

Uniquedot said:

No that makes it slower. An example would be in 700x and 800x these are the exact same powders, but 800x is in larger flakes so that it burns slower and is useable in heavy and magnum loads.

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More surface area & bigger flake doesn't mean the same thing.

More surface area & bigger flake doesn't mean the same thing.

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Larger flakes equals more surface area which is how the burning rate of blackpowder has always been altered.

They use surface area as well as coatings to affect burn rate. How thin or thick also comes into play as well. You cannot look at a powder and tell its burn rate.

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I'm well aware of chemical retardants as they are the number one source of controlled burned used in smokeless powders, but larger "cuts" are also used.

How Red Dot acts in 12 Gauge I have no clue, but how it acts in pistol loads I have some experience with, and that experience tells me it is "faster" than Bullseye in those applications, whatever "faster" means to you.

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What it means to me is that it can't be used effectively in 12 ga because it burns too quickly and releases it's energy before it can get the shot charge moving. I don't know how it acts with light bullets, but when a charge of shot is holding it back under the compression of a tight sealing wad column it burns much faster than red dot.

I suppose it could depend on the application?

Larger chunks that are more dense have less surcafe area.

Larger chunks that are more dense have less surcafe area.

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Okay, this is something i will have to do a little more studying on. Density and surface area... I based my observations on the fact that blackpowder burning rate has always been altered in accordance to the granule size and as an example that imr took their fast burning 700x target powder and made the flakes larger which in turn slowed the burning rate calling it 800x and making it useable in heavy/magnum loads.

Think of a pound of marbles and a pound of bb's. Even though the surface area of each bb is small there are so many more of them that the total surface area for the bb's is much greater than the surface area of the marbles. Now if you have lead marbles instead of glass marbles you need fewer of them to reach 1 pound in weight. Thus, fewer marbles and the total surface area is again reduced.

Grain and coal present exactly this threat. When grain or coal is in large particles in mounds they have much less surface area and are much safer than when they form an aerosol dust and have all their surfaces exposed. Grain elevetor and mine explosions can happen because of the high burn rate allowed by the huge surface area of the airborne dust.

Also the geometry during the powder burn is important. Most powders decrease their surface area as they burn (the little balls or sticks get smaller during the burn decreasing the burn rate). Some powders are perforated so that as the "outside" shrinks down the "hole" gets bigger keeping the surface area and thus the burn rate more even.

Some of the naval powders from the WWII era were really interesting, multiperforated and made in a rosetta shape to control the burn rate during the launch of 2700 lb. shells!

Dan