Red Dot versus Bullseye...burn rate

[fjlee]

Looking at the Hodgdon chart of "Powder Relative Burn Rates"......I see Alliant Red Dot powder is listed as being a "FASTER" powder than Bullseye.

Prior to this, I've never, ever seen Red Dot listed as being "faster" than Bullseye.

In fact, on page 4, the 1995 Alliant manual states "Red Dot burns more slowly than Bullseye."

I emailed a query to Hodgdon regarding this........never got a reply.

Do you folks think of Red Dot as having a "faster burn rate" than Bullseye?

I think the Hodgdon chart is in error. I wonder how many errors are on that chart?

FjLee Denver CO

 

[winterhorse290]

??!!! not sure about red dot, but if i remeber right max load in a .38 was 2.4 grs bullseye and 4.7 unique. always thought bullseye was the fastest.

 

[kingmt]

I always thought the others were wrong. It seems a little faster in most of the places I have used it. It is so close that it doesn't mean much.

 

[Walkalong]

Email Alliant. Hodgdon is unlikely to answer you about another makers powder. Some charts have Bullseye as faster, and some have Red Dot as faster.

 

[joneb]

IIRC Bullseye is a fast pistol powder and Red Dot is a fast shotgun powder.

 

[zxcvbob]

Red Dot burns faster. Bullseye has a higher energy content; enough that it has a slightly higher "relative quickness" number.

 

[mackg]

I seem to remember Red Dot having lower max loads than Bullsey in some applications; it is not uncommon for close powders to trade "places" in different calibers. It shows the limitations of charts.

zxcvbob's answer is very interesting in that matter.

 

[evan price]

I dunno about that, I seem to recall BE and RD are both sharing back and forth which is faster, both are double base, but IIRC BE has a higher nitroglycerine content than RD.

 

[homatok]

The placing of one powder over another on a chart can be affected by the varience in burn rate from powder lot to powder lot. Powder burn rate charts are ONLY a rough guide and powders are NOT interchangable within load "recipes"!

 

[Certaindeaf]

Never used Bullseye.. use/d a bunch of Red Dot. I hear they're very close in burn rate.
I hear that RD is quite bulky relative to other like speed powders, which I like.

 

[Walkalong]

I emailed Alliant a few years ago asking about nitro content. According to Ben Amonette at Alliant Bullseye and Power Pistol are 40% Nitro content, and Red Dot is 20% and Blue Dot is 15%.

Red Dot is less forgiving than Bullseye, that is for sure.

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
Meaning how so? I always thought nitro had some/the oomph. And then there's respective charge volume..

 

[Walkalong]

Meaning how so?

A bit simple, but....Nitro = energy. Energy = more velocity.

Tightgroup uses low charge weights not only because it is a fast powder, but also because of the high nitro content. It also burns hotter due to the high nitro content. In general, I lean towards low content nitro and no content nitro (Single base) pistol propellants. In general.

Meaning how so?

Red Dot is "spikey" as the charge weight gets up there. Bullseye is much less spikey. Red Dot is not nearly as versatile as Bullseye (IMO). Good stuff, but Bullseye works over a wide range of calibers and not just for low end target loads.

 

[Certaindeaf]

A bit simple, but....Nitro = energy. Energy = more velocity.

Tightgroup uses low charge weights not only because it is a fast powder, but also because of the high nitro content. It also burns hotter due to the high nitro content. In general, I lean towards low content nitro and no content nitro (Single base) pistol propellants. In general.


Red Dot is "spikey" as the charge weight gets up there. Bullseye is much less spikey. Red Dot is not nearly as versatile as Bullseye (IMO). Good stuff, but Bullseye works over a wide range of calibers and not just for low end target loads.

But who was talking about Tightgroup?, and with the above, what you said prior makes no sense to me.
Also, Red Dot is used for and called for in wide range of applications.. from target to above mid-range and I'd hardly call it "spikey".

 

[kingmt]

I have had it spike on me.

 

[joneb]

Bullseye has given me very good accuracy over a wide range of pressure.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I've loaded a few pounds of each. RD is more difficult to meter for me anyways. but being a flake it's cleaner than BE, less sooty. I use it for 'target and plinking' loads, it's also low flash

 

[Walkalong]

But who was talking about Tightgroup?, and with the above, what you said prior makes no sense to me.

I merely used it as an example.

Red Dot is a lot like Tightgroup insomuch as it has a high Nitro content. Tightgroup is talked about here often as being "hot" burning, and I thought it would be a good example. As you posted, Red Dot is bulky, which I like as well. Tightgroup is not.

I disagree with you that Red Dot is not "spikey". perhaps it doesn't mean the same thing to you. When you get to the max load with Red Dot, the pressure can really jump with a tiny increase. Good stuff, but very fast, and somewhat unforgiving at the top end.

What part do you not understand? Or do you just disagree, which is fine.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I merely used it as an example.

Red Dot is a lot like Tightgroup insomuch as it has a high Nitro content. Tightgroup is talked about here often as being "hot" burning, and I thought it would be a good example. As you posted, Red Dot is bulky, which I like as well. Tightgroup is not.

I disagree with you that Red Dot is not "spikey". perhaps it doesn't mean the same thing to you. When you get to the max load with Red Dot, the pressure can really jump with a tiny increase. Good stuff, but very fast, and somewhat unforgiving at the top end.

What part do you not understand? Or do you just disagree, which is fine.

I hear you but before you said BE and PP had twice as much nitro than RD which didn't quite jibe (to me) with what you were positing.. that RD is more "unforgiving". Nevermind.

I emailed Alliant a few years ago asking about nitro content. According to Ben Amonette at Alliant Bullseye and Power Pistol are 40% Nitro content, and Red Dot is 20% and Blue Dot is 15%.

Red Dot is less forgiving than Bullseye, that is for sure.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

All the powder companies have burn rate charts and all are different. Powder burn rate is really a relative burn rate. Powders will have different burn rates when used in different calibers so unless the the charts were made with the cane calibers they will be different. (but close enough to work with)

 

[Waywatcher]

I wouldn't worry about it. Bullseye is much more dense, for sure.

Email Alliant if it's a big deal to you.

 

[Walkalong]

that RD is more "unforgiving".

Yes, in my experience it is. There are more things in play that nitro content. N310 can be spiky, and it is single base.

I would love to hear from other folks who use Red Dot and Bullseye.

 

[fjlee]

Looking at the Hodgdon chart of "Powder Relative Burn Rates"......I see Alliant Red Dot powder is listed as being a "FASTER" powder than Bullseye.

Prior to this, I've never, ever seen Red Dot listed as being "faster" than Bullseye.

In fact, on page 4, the 1995 Alliant manual states "Red Dot burns more slowly than Bullseye.{QUOTE}


Since I posted the above, I've recieved a bit more info, in the form of a year 2012 Alliant Reloader's Guide.

In this 2012 publication, at the top of page 11, Alliant says:

"We currently offer 31 powders for use in reloading. These are listed in the order of decreasing burn rates. Each powder listed is "slower" than those preceding it and "faster" than those following it. Among these Alliant smokeless powders, for example, Red Dot burns more slowly than Bullseye, but faster than Green Dot."

The chart that follows the above Alliant statement shows Bullseye as being their fastest powder, followed by Extra-Lite, then e3, and then Red Dot.

So in 1995, Alliant thought that Bullseye was faster than Red Dot, and they still think so in 2012. If that's their stated opinion, I guess I'll accept it. I do like their powders.

FWIW........

FjLee Denver CO

 

[LiveLife]

Good to know and it supports my experience with Bullseye and Promo powders.

I have shot Bullseye and Promo (Alliant indicates Promo has same burn rate as Red Dot) in 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP and Bullseye has typically produce more recoil snap and impulse, even more so than Promo loads.

 

[fecmech]

Evidently I'm missing something here with the RD BE who's faster. If you look at the Alliant 2005 powder guide in the pistol and revolver load section it looks to me like RD is faster than BE. Almost EVERY load in every caliber ( couple of exceptions) show RD maxing out pressure at less load weight than BE with the same bullet. To me that says RD is faster than BE. To my mind when less powder equals less velocity and equal or more pressure that's the faster powder.
RD may be slower in a closed bomb burn rate test but in practical applications like loading cartridges it's faster.