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mb3
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My guess would be yes; a one pound container of 777 should give you more loads than a one pound container of BP, by about 15 to 20%. 777 also costs about 59% more than BP, at roughly $27 a pound vs $16 a pound for BP. Just so you know I shoot both but usually more 777 because I think it cleans up better.
Both Pyrodex and 777 have a bulk density of .75 grams/cc. If you load 777 at the recommended value of .85 grains/volume of 777 to 1 grain/volume of Pyrodex, then yes, you will get 15% more loads from a bottle of 777 than you would with Pyrodex.
So 30 grains volume of Pyrodex is roughly the same as 30 grains volume of 777 in regards to weight? But lighter than BP. Is that what you are saying mykeal? The volume of 1 lb of Pyrodex P and 3F 777 is the same?
Using 777 for my ROA I wouldn't reduce my charge. But would for the rifle I eventually get.
Using 777 for my ROA I wouldn't reduce my charge. But would for the rifle I eventually get.
Here are some conversion factors that were established by a test some years ago (I've lost the reference over the years):
100 grains/volume 777 FFG = 77.7 grains/weight
100 grains/volume Pyrodex RS = 78.0 grains/weight
100 grains/volume Goex FFG = 110 grains/weight
Thus 30 grains/volume of:
777 FFG weighs 23.3 grains
Pyrodex RS weighs 23.4 grains
Goex FFG weighs 33 grains
30 grains/volume of Goex FFG and Pyrodex RS fired under the same weight projectile will produce very nearly the same muzzle velocity and energy.
30 grains/volume of 777 FFG will produce approximately 15% greater muzzle velocity (and thus energy) than 30 grains/volume of either Goex FFG or Pyrodex RS when fired under the same weight projectile.
To produce (approximately) the same muzzle velocity and energy as 30 grains/volume of either Goex FFG or Pyrodex RS you would need to reduce the 777 FFG to approximately 25.5 grains/volume.
100 grains/volume 777 FFG = 77.7 grains/weight
100 grains/volume Pyrodex RS = 78.0 grains/weight
100 grains/volume Goex FFG = 110 grains/weight
Thus 30 grains/volume of:
777 FFG weighs 23.3 grains
Pyrodex RS weighs 23.4 grains
Goex FFG weighs 33 grains
30 grains/volume of Goex FFG and Pyrodex RS fired under the same weight projectile will produce very nearly the same muzzle velocity and energy.
30 grains/volume of 777 FFG will produce approximately 15% greater muzzle velocity (and thus energy) than 30 grains/volume of either Goex FFG or Pyrodex RS when fired under the same weight projectile.
To produce (approximately) the same muzzle velocity and energy as 30 grains/volume of either Goex FFG or Pyrodex RS you would need to reduce the 777 FFG to approximately 25.5 grains/volume.
arcticap
Member
The problem with directly comparing the number of powder charges by volume of 1 Lb. of Goex FFG to 777 FFG is that the volume of 1 Lb. of 777 is unknown. All that we know is that the 1 Lb. container is comprised of 7000 grains of powder by weight.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
However by using the conversion chart comparing the weight/volume of Goex FFG to the weight of 777 FFG, it can be determined how many 34 grain equivalent charges by weight are contained in 1 lb. of FFG verses 1 Lb. of 777 FFG.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
For Goex FFG, 7000 grains (or 1 lb.) divided by 34 = 205.88 powder charges.
Now the chart shows that 34 grains of Goex FFG weight/volume = 24.9 grains of 777 by weight, but it hasn’t been reduced by 15% yet.
When the equivalent of 34 grains of 777 FFG is adjusted 15% to indicate the equivalent charge weight, then 1 single "15% less equivalent" charge equals 21.2 grains of weight.
So for 777 FFG, 7000 grains (or 1 Lb.) divided by 21.2 (34 grain equivalent by weight) = 330.18 powder charges.
The 1 Lb. of Goex FFG has about 38% less powder charges than 1 Lb. of 777 FFG., or a difference of 124-125 loads.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
However by using the conversion chart comparing the weight/volume of Goex FFG to the weight of 777 FFG, it can be determined how many 34 grain equivalent charges by weight are contained in 1 lb. of FFG verses 1 Lb. of 777 FFG.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
For Goex FFG, 7000 grains (or 1 lb.) divided by 34 = 205.88 powder charges.
Now the chart shows that 34 grains of Goex FFG weight/volume = 24.9 grains of 777 by weight, but it hasn’t been reduced by 15% yet.
When the equivalent of 34 grains of 777 FFG is adjusted 15% to indicate the equivalent charge weight, then 1 single "15% less equivalent" charge equals 21.2 grains of weight.
So for 777 FFG, 7000 grains (or 1 Lb.) divided by 21.2 (34 grain equivalent by weight) = 330.18 powder charges.
The 1 Lb. of Goex FFG has about 38% less powder charges than 1 Lb. of 777 FFG., or a difference of 124-125 loads.
Last edited:
arcticap
Member
rodwha said:
Yes, according to the chart Goex FFG does.
100 grains of its weight equals 100 grains of volume.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
"100 grains/volume Goex FFG = 110 grains/weight"
Typo I suppose?
I finally looked at the chart and saw that.
I find it strange that Pinn 2F weighs more than 3F. I would have thought 3F would weigh more as it can more easily rest compacted in that same volume leaving less air space.
Typo I suppose?
I finally looked at the chart and saw that.
I find it strange that Pinn 2F weighs more than 3F. I would have thought 3F would weigh more as it can more easily rest compacted in that same volume leaving less air space.
arcticap
Member
Yes, the chart probably does display a typo for Pinnacle that mixed up the figures for Pinnacle FFG & FFFG.
Goex Pinnacle powder has been discontinued for a short number of years now.
Goex Pinnacle powder has been discontinued for a short number of years now.
Nope. That's what I measured. The difference between what I have and The Curt Rich chart may be due to variations in volume measures. There is no government or scientific standard definition for a grain of volume. The populist 'definition' is 1 grain by weight of water at 59 degrees Fahrenheit (sic) displaces a volume defined to be 1 grain/volume. I have 4 volume measures, and they do not agree; the spread is 13% at the extremes. I attempted to use the 'definition' above to determine which one is 'right' and found the one closest to it throws 110 grains/weight of FFG Goex when set at 100 grains/volume. Curt Rich gives no source for his numbers; he just defines "100 gr. VOLUME of BP equals 'approximately' 100 gr. WEIGHT" (and then he displays 3 significant figures!). So, you pay your money and you take your choice.
In the end it doesn't really matter. What matters most is that you pick one method of loading and stick to it. Consistency is the holy grail. There are enough variables that you can't control - there's no point in adding ones that you don't have to.
If someone tells you that he gets the best accuracy with 30 grains/volume of 777 you don't know if he settles the powder when he measures it, or if he 'tops off' the measure, or spills a little, or if his measure is off by 15% and many other things. All you can do is try it and see how it works for you. By the time you're done experimenting you'll know what works for you; if it's 35 grains/volume that doesn't mean the other guy was wrong, it may mean you don't do things the same way with the same equipment. But if you use the same method every time, you can count on what you're doing to put the ball where you think it's going to go.
"What matters most is that you pick one method of loading and stick to it. Consistency is the holy grail."
Yes sir indeed!
My first target had 3 cylinders worth put into it. My first cylinder had 40 grn of Pyrodex RS with a wad and ball, which I had loaded beforehand as I wanted to test my rebent base pin. After that it was 30 grns with some Cream of Wheat, which I began doing a poor job with and eventually scrounged up a few spent cases to use as a measure.
My first target (18 rds) was roughly 5" with another with 12 rds measuring about 2" after having settling on a 22 LR case since the 380 ACP was a bit too large. I also overfilled my measure so as to know I had a full 30 grns.
I now have tubing cutters in my box for next time so that I can find what is best. I'll look for a few more cases for different powder volumes.
Next time I'll be more consistent.
Yes sir indeed!
My first target had 3 cylinders worth put into it. My first cylinder had 40 grn of Pyrodex RS with a wad and ball, which I had loaded beforehand as I wanted to test my rebent base pin. After that it was 30 grns with some Cream of Wheat, which I began doing a poor job with and eventually scrounged up a few spent cases to use as a measure.
My first target (18 rds) was roughly 5" with another with 12 rds measuring about 2" after having settling on a 22 LR case since the 380 ACP was a bit too large. I also overfilled my measure so as to know I had a full 30 grns.
I now have tubing cutters in my box for next time so that I can find what is best. I'll look for a few more cases for different powder volumes.
Next time I'll be more consistent.
alsaqr
Member
i'm a dedicated user of Pinnacle. 100 measured grains of Pinnacle 3F weighs 82.1 grains. 100 measured grains of 2F Pinnacle weighs 85.8 grains. My figures were obtained by measuring 20 samples of 100 grains each in a brass CVA measure. The measure was over filled and struck off level. No tapping the measure, nothing else.
What was the standard error in your 20 samples?
I can assure you that your CVA brass measure and my CVA brass measure will disagree with each other and with almost anyone else's CVA brass measure. These are not precision devices.
I can assure you that your CVA brass measure and my CVA brass measure will disagree with each other and with almost anyone else's CVA brass measure. These are not precision devices.
I give alsaqr enough credit to be smart enough to use the same measure at the same setting in all his measuring and the same scale to weigh with.
So it matters not about accuracy of the measure. The point he showed is that a certain amount of volume of 3F is lighter then the same volume amount of 2F.
That means Pinnacle must make their 2F powder denser then their 3F.
So it matters not about accuracy of the measure. The point he showed is that a certain amount of volume of 3F is lighter then the same volume amount of 2F.
That means Pinnacle must make their 2F powder denser then their 3F.
arcticap
Member
alsaqr said:
Thanks alsaqr, very interesting indeed!
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm not familiar with IMR White Hots. Does it work well with percussion caps (#11)? Does it produce higher velocities like 777 or BH209 over BP or other subs?
One of the biggest reasons for considering 777 is for use in my ROA, as I won't need to reduce my charges and want to achieve >45 Colt performance for hunting/defensive sidearm use. That it takes 15% less in the rifle and still gets average velocities is a bonus.
Less fouling is also quite nice.
One of the biggest reasons for considering 777 is for use in my ROA, as I won't need to reduce my charges and want to achieve >45 Colt performance for hunting/defensive sidearm use. That it takes 15% less in the rifle and still gets average velocities is a bonus.
Less fouling is also quite nice.
arcticap
Member
White Hots pellets are made by IMR, a division of Hodgdon. They're a more potent form of 777, and are recommended for use in any .50 long gun that takes a 209 primer.
http://www.imrpowder.com/white-hots.html
http://www.imrpowder.com/white-hots.html
I just looked at them and found they are meant for .50 cal only and only come in pellets. I prefer the idea of loose powder as I can charge it the way I want it depending on my purpose.
No doubt pellets are much easier to work with, especially out in the field with no flask or measure to deal with as well. But the expense!
No doubt pellets are much easier to work with, especially out in the field with no flask or measure to deal with as well. But the expense!
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