Five-seven, Hype or good?

LOOK
no really look at what the gun was designed for

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So? Does that mean it is incapable of doing anything else or has no other attributes? The AR15 was designed for military use but that doesn't mean it is not an effective gun for home defense, hunting and competition shooting.

I picked up my Five-seveN IOM about four years ago LNIB for about $480. It had the 10 round mags which I immediately replaced with the proper Free State mags, one with the 10 round extender. It's my favorite range gun, accurate and fun to shoot. I would trust it for SD (and have, under very specialized circumstances) but it's not easy to conceal and there aren't many holsters made for the IOM frame. I like it well enough that I started looking for a PS90 just before the panic but I didn't find one and they are even more crazy expensive now than they were before.

The Ft. Hood shooter was in fact shot back by one of the people he shot and merely wounded with the five seven.

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That woman that stopped him was shot in the leg. Her leg bone was shattered from the round that hit her. By the sounds of it, a hit from a .45, 9mm, ect would have created less of a wound.

Some people say that the Tokarev 7.62 x 25 is the 'poor man's' FN 5.7.

It's neat, but 100% over priced. I'd buy one in the $400-$600 range, but it's just not a $1k gun, IMO.

There is a 5.7mm pistol I'm considering, but not for defense. Would make an excellent choice for close range varminting:

WinThePennant said:

Some people say that the Tokarev 7.62 x 25 is the 'poor man's' FN 5.7.

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It should cost same or little more then Glock, M&P, XD,.... They're asking a lot for pile of plastic.

It should cost same or little more then Glock, M&P, XD,.... They're asking a lot for pile of plastic.

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I whole heartenly agree. It's a cool gun that I would like to get someday but no thanks for $1,000. Hopefully another company will create their own FiveseveN.

I'm not a ballistics guy, but why not just a .22 magnum HP instead?

As others stated, it's too expensive, too rare for gun parts and ammo and holsters, and doesn't do anything that more common calibers do, better.

I have held, owned and shot a LOT of guns. Due to the rarity, I've never shot a 5.7 pistol. I may have held one, but don't recall.

I'm not interested in owning some unicorn pistol where parts and ammo are obscure.

I believe the history of this was for controllable full auto armor piercing, neither of which are available to civilians.

So with the 5.7 you pay the penalty of high price, low effectiveness, low availability... no thanks. Give me a 9, .40, or .45...

I had a FiveseveN and a PS90. LOVED them both. I sold them on GB in January along with some ammo for $5100. As much I enjoyed them, I didn't feel like I could shoot them due to scarcity of ammo and decided to focus on 22LR and 9mm pistols.

I'd love to get a PS90 again, if/when prices come back to earth. Its a tremendous package and getting a tax stamp to put a P90 barrel would make it a perfect HD gun.

As an ex-owner of one: Good and Over-hyped.
Good for security detail. Twenty one armor piercing low-recoil rounds in a lightweight reliable handgun.
Take that away. You don't do executive protection. What's left? Ammo is scarce and price gouging rampant. Muzzle flash. For self defense CCW, far from ideal. I wish I could spend more time with my FiveSeven. But I don't keep safe queens. Found her a new home.
An excellent ultra modern handgun, one of a kind.

MachIVshooter said:

It's neat, but 100% over priced. I'd buy one in the $400-$600 range, but it's just not a $1k gun, IMO.

There is a 5.7mm pistol I'm considering, but not for defense. Would make an excellent choice for close range varminting:

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I've only seen one Excel pistol in person and the results were not good. It was the .17HMR version but it looked identical to that gun.

The malfunction rate was probably over 40%. If my experience was anything to go by, I'd pass on the 5.7 version especially.

Also, to the guy who said that the Tokarev was the poor man's 5.7, I disagree. I think the 5.7 is the rich man's Tokarev. Does the same thing at a much higher cost.

Any 22 Magnum is a poor mans FiveSeven.

I am trying to sell the idea of buying one to myself. I have tried to find the terminal ballistics data that proves the pistol is capable of fulfilling the FBI's requirements. So far none of the bullets available show a reliable penetration depth to between 12"-14".If they do, I don't see any data that proves it. I see lots of gel tests that shows crazy tumbling/fragmentation. But, I don't see anything that shows reliable penetration to 12"-14".

The "common" ammo (SS197SR that is rare and expensive anyway) needs to be able to fulfill that requirement before I purchase the pistol.

Its neat that certain bullets, even ones available to civilians are able to pierce level II and III soft body armor (not talking about the SS197SR). However, they still need to be able to produce acceptable terminal ballistic performance with or at least without body armor for me to consider buying the pistol.

If I carried a P90 as a duty weapon, then I would appreciate the FN 5.7 more than I do. However, I have no desire to shoot a rifle round out of a handgun, particularly since I won't be taking long distance shots with it.

If you actually had access to the original loads (potent penetrator), you might be able to sell me on this platform in certain situations, but the new loads have reduced velocity and don't compare to the original.

iMagUdspEllr said:

I am trying to sell the idea of buying one to myself. I have tried to find the terminal ballistics data that proves the pistol is capable of fulfilling the FBI's requirements. So far none of the bullets available show a reliable penetration depth to between 12"-14".If they do, I don't see any data that proves it. I see lots of gel tests that shows crazy tumbling/fragmentation. But, I don't see anything that shows reliable penetration to 12"-14".

The "common" ammo (SS197SR that is rare and expensive anyway) needs to be able to fulfill that requirement before I purchase the pistol.

Its neat that certain bullets, even ones available to civilians are able to pierce level II and III soft body armor (not talking about the SS197SR). However, they still need to be able to produce acceptable terminal ballistic performance with or at least without body armor for me to consider buying the pistol.

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On armor piercing: as a civilian, forget it. Don't even go there.

I am trying to sell the idea of buying one to myself. I have tried to find the terminal ballistics data that proves the pistol is capable of fulfilling the FBI's requirements. So far none of the bullets available show a reliable penetration depth to between 12"-14".If they do, I don't see any data that proves it. I see lots of gel tests that shows crazy tumbling/fragmentation. But, I don't see anything that shows reliable penetration to 12"-14".

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You won't find data that shows deep penetration. The round dumps it's energy quickly in large but shallower wound channels than typical handgun ammo produce. It's one of the features that make it suitable for "crowds". Besides, most handgun ammo will not penetrate 12-14" anyway. I consider the 5.7 in the same level as most 9mm, but without over-penetration worries.

@YZ: Multiple rounds offered by Elite Ammunition that you can buy as a civilian are capable of penetrating level II and III soft body armor. Look up the T6 on youtube.

I think the American Eagle TMJ 5.7 round penetrated a level II vest if I remember correctly. That one is on youtube also.

However, that isn't a selling point for me because the bullet needs to be able to reliably penetrate 12-14" (have to make it through a forearm and still have enough energy left to penetrate to vital organs).

@usp9: All hollow points that meet the FBI's requirements are good for crowds. All hollow points limit overpenetration. If you shoot an FMJ 9mm, .40, .45, et cetera they will all penetrate very very deep (bad for "crowds"). The FBI required 12-14" of penetration in order to guarantee enough penetration to go through the bad guy's arm (which is usually in front of the vital organs when they are pointing a gun at you) but still limit the penetration depth so that bystanders wouldn't be harmed.

All hollow points dump energy quickly in a shallower wound channel because the expansion of the hollow point prevents them from overpenetrating like an FMJ would do. The 5.7 ammunition available does the same thing, that isn't the issue.

The problem with the 5.7 is that the ammunition available limits the penetration too much and underpenetrates. The average penetration depth I have seen is about 9"-10". That doesn't meet the FBI's standard and would cause an otherwise well-placed shot to fail to penetrate through the forearms or bones and continue to penetrate deep enough to harm vital organs.

The information I have seen seems to indicate that the ammunition available fails to yield adequate penetration and suffers from severe deflection which greatly decreases the chances that the bullet will perforate the vital organ you aimed the barrel at (due to inadequate penetration or severe deflection).

Basically, 9mm, .40, and .45 hollow points that meet the FBI's standards are good for crowds too, and they don't suffer from underpenetration or deflection issues.

(...)

It is not that armor piercing rounds are unobtainable. It's about what makes sense to you in the real world.

@YZ: After reviewing your edit I'm still confused. I understand that you acknowledge that AP 5.7 rounds are available to civilians. But, I don't understand what you mean by 'making sense in the real world'?

If the T6 or other ammunition available to civilians for the 5.7 could reliably produce 12"-14" of penetration and didn't suffer from severe deflection then I think the FiveseveN would be a great pistol to purchase (if not THE pistol to purchase). But, that isn't the case. All available ammunition seems to have underpenetration or deflection issues in soft ballistic gelatin.

iMagUdspEllr said:

@YZ: After reviewing your edit I'm still confused. I understand that you acknowledge that AP 5.7 rounds are available to civilians. But, I don't understand what you mean by 'making sense in the real world'?

If the T6 or other ammunition available to civilians for the 5.7 could reliably produce 12"-14" of penetration and didn't suffer from severe deflection then I think the FiveseveN would be a great pistol to purchase (if not THE pistol to purchase). But, that isn't the case. All available ammunition seems to have underpenetration or deflection issues in soft ballistic gelatin.

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Because carrying armor piercing rounds in the chamber is irrational for self defense. We have the hollowpoints, the military doesn't. If it isn't obvious to everyone, fine by me, no sweat.

YZ said:

Because carrying armor piercing rounds in the chamber is irrational for self defense. We have the hollowpoints, the military doesn't. If it isn't obvious to everyone, fine by me, no sweat.

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It never hurts to be prepared.

I know this is an extremely specific scenario but if you were in the Aurora theater with a gun you'd want it to punch through body armor whenever that psycho, Holmes came in.

Since libs disarmed everyone there with gun free zone rules in said it didn't matter anyways.

@YZ: Okay, I see the misunderstanding. 5.7 ammo of all types that are available to civilians have a tendency to pierce soft body armor (some can't, some do, some do very well). I'm not proposing using dedicated AP rounds. I'm telling you that ball or fragmenting 5.7 ammo just so happens to penetrate soft body armor because of the small surface area of the bullet.

I'm not saying use dedicated AP ammo instead of hollow points. I'm just saying that some 5.7 hollow points can pierce soft body armor.

@Kiln: James Holmes wasn't wearing body armor. He was wearing a Blackhawk Urban Assault vest (i.e. nylon... not kevlar).

The gun control idiots are just as incapable of identifying body armor as they are at identifying guns.

But, yes, if you could buy a gun and ammo that met the FBI's requirements and could also penetrate soft body armor... why not? The only issue is that the FiveseveN and the 5.7x28 doesn't do this.

iMagUdspEllr said:

@Kiln: James Holmes wasn't wearing body armor. He was wearing a Blackhawk Urban Assault vest (i.e. nylon... not kevlar).

The gun control idiots are just as incapable of identifying body armor as they are at identifying guns.

But, yes, if you could buy a gun and ammo that met the FBI's requirements and could also penetrate soft body armor... why not? The only issue is that the FiveseveN and the 5.7x28 doesn't do this.

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Really? That's the first time I'd heard that. I've heard body armor from every source.

Figures though, the media doesn't know their own butt from their muzzle.

Anything other than a "Northfarce" jacket is considered body armor by the Media.