Five Seven

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For traditional handguns this may be true, but understand on a living target, ballistic gelatin is only half the battle. The reason the 5.7mm is still viable is that its velocity is high enough that it can penetrate a torso and still be moving at a high enough velocity that the shockwave can ripple through tissue. But a lot of people also misunderstand the terminal ballistics of small calibres on humans at close range.
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The 5.7x28 out of a handgun is not going to be traveling fast enough to produce a truly damaging "shockwave" that you refer to. The bullet may go fast enough to produce a small temporary cavity, but that in itself does not destroy tissue. This has been found to be the case even with high velocity rifle rounds. Human tissue, with the exception of the very few extremely inelastic parts, such as the brain, are simply too elastic to be permanently damaged by temporary cavitation.
From the FBI report on ballistic injury:
...remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.
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The 5.7x28 out of a pistol is a far cry from the amount of energy carried by a .308 or something of that nature, so it would be tough to believe the shockwave thing IMO. There are plenty of veterans that have been hit with high powered rifle rounds near the spine and lived to tell about it. My uncle was one of them. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe for a minute that this little bullet fired from a handgun is going to produce enough velocity in the surrounding tissue to cause permanent damage anywhere other than in the permanent cavity.


I think a lot of the arguments for expansion come wounding effects on animals. What you need to realize is that humans have a MUCH more sensitive nervous system. We have well over a hundred billion neurons in a very small body. Most animals our size have 1/10th that. Especially with deer, they have a thick body and for a pressure wave affect the spine and central nervous system, you'd have to have a very fast bullet penetrating very deep and crossing close to the spine.

A significant shock to our nervous system, either from the energy of a large bullet, or a small bullet at great velocity, will usually incapacitate more readily than large flesh wounds. People lose arms and legs, and get impaled by large objects and live to tell about it. Some drive themselves to the hospital. Few people are able function after the shock of a high-velocity bullet that crosses anywhere near the spine or major nerve.
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No offense intended, but this idea of a person just dropping from a "pressure wave" because they have more neurons than a deer is bunk. For an instant stop, the CNS would have to be hit. Not a near miss- a hit. The CNS is not just something that lies around in the body unprotected. There are very dense bones that surround it, and for good reason.
As for this "sensitivity of the nervous system" that you refer to, peripheral nerves do not even come into play here, unless you account for the psychological effects that pain may or may not produce in some individuals, and that is not an event that you can count on. The number of neurons in the body is absolutely irrelevant if you are speaking of physical incapacitation.


Jason
 
I remember hearing about a shootout, where multiple cops were hit sometimes multiple times with 7.62x39. They all lived, most (maybe all?) managed to get to safety, sometime continuing to fight, and one might have even got hit in the spine, I remember he had an injury there.
 
In the north hollywood bank robery and shoot out 17 cops were shot, most with AKs and every one lived.

My step brother who lives in Maine has killed 4 deer in the last 4 seasons with a 22WMR rifle. The latetest one was taken down with one shot from over 100yds. I believe the others died from one shot also.
So a 22 will kill.

To remove all doubt get a 44mag super redhawk with a nice 8inch barrel with some 180gr reloads that slightly exceed SAAMI specs.
 
The number of neurons in the body is absolutely irrelevant if you are speaking of physical incapacitation.
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I'm not speaking strictly of incapacitating physical function. Humans are very sensitive to nervous shock, and it's easy to disrupt to disrupt motor function and cause disorientation, more than enough to take the fight out of them. Unless you need to stop somebody who is on a substance that reduces that sensitivity, I think you can reliably take away a person's ability to pose a threat by a small but penetrating high-velocity bullet. Would a well-placed .357 do a better job? Probably. But if you can more reliably shoot a low-recoil, high capacity 5.7, it might be your better chance for suppressing a threat so you can get out of a dangerous situation.

Edit: My point isn't that the 5.7x28mm will drop them stone dead, it probably won't. But causing a permanent cavity is secondary to causing enough system shock to prevent them from successfully hurting you.
 
Glock 19.

Ammo is a LOT more readily available and in a LOT more variety.

Magazines are easier to find and cheaper. Replacement parts, barrels, holsters, and all other accessories are more available with tons of options.

9mm is a much more tested and proven round.

Glock 19 will fit her hands a lot better. Five Seven vs Glock 19 grips is like Desert Eagle vs Glock 17 grip...Glock 19 will fit her beter. (not the best/most accurate analogy I guess)

Glock costs a tad bit more than the Five Seven SHOULD...which is a lot less than the FiveSeven DOES cost.
 
First of all, let your wife choose (ultimately). THAT is how you can be sure she will carry/use it. Would you pick a car for her?

Send her to corneredcat.com and have hear read up on good handgun selection criteria...to paraphrase pax, "You are not the best resource to help your GF choose a handgun - sorry."

Second, this statement, made by tweakkkk...
I wouldn't worry about man-stopping performance... I mean honestly, how many of us live in cities and routinely are faced with situation so bad we need to be concerned about whether or not we're packing a firearm 24/7 that can stop a drug-binging psychopath in one shot?
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Is silly; come on, if you're using a weapon in a life or death situation, it's a matter of life or death. I don't care where you are, or who you're defending against...if you don't take it seriously enough to require maximum power and capability, you shouldn't be using the gun. So choose the biggest/most powerful gun you can shoot AND carry, and don't deploy it unless you are in a SERIOUS situation.
 
But causing a permanent cavity is secondary to causing enough system shock to prevent them from successfully hurting you.
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The permanent cavity is about the only thing that will produce this "system shock". You put a permanent cavity (a hole) in parts that are not supposed to have holes. There is no such handgun bullet that radiates magical "shockwaves" that will cause incapacitation by proxy.

Read the material in the links below and you will understand what I am saying.
In case you don't want to read the whole thing, here is a very pertinent quote from it:
Dr. Mary Case, a board-certified neuropathologist and forensic pathologist with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner’s Office and the St. Louis University School of Medicine, Dr. Michael Graham, a forensic pathologist with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner’s Office and the St. Louis University School of Medicine, COL. Charles Van Way, a general surgeon with the U.S. Army 325th General Hospital, and Dr. Thomas Helling, the Director of Trauma Surgery at St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, reviewed Chapter 2, "A Neurologist’s View of ‘Stopping Power’". These well qualified scientists are unanimous in their condemnation of this material.

The absurd claims made in this chapter, as well as the similar remarks on pages 6, 7, and 176, regarding the ability of a bullet to remotely stress and shock the central nervous system (CNS) are grossly inaccurate and completely unsupported by any accepted scientific evidence according to Dr. Case. This pseudoscientific speculation is presented as verified scientific fact, yet allusion to Göransson’s discredited data is the only scientific reference the authors cite to support their unjustified claims.1 Dr. Helling remarks that this material: "...relates to anecdotal experience and pure hypothesis," while Dr. Van Way states that it: "...would seem not only to be without supporting evidence, but to contradict common sense."

A thorough review of the scientific literature relating to wound ballistics has failed to identify any valid research papers which demonstrate that projectiles can exert a remote effect on the CNS.
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Here are the links. There's more data out there, but these are two good ones to look at:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm


Jason
 
Here are the links. There's more data out there, but these are two good ones to look at:
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I read both. I'm not meaning to be sound nitpicky here, but I read through research papers all day long in Psychology. Those have no data at all. The first one was a brief book review where people critiqued the research methods of a particular study. Attacking one study doesn't qualify as evidence for the counter-position. The FBI manual also presented no findings against hydrostatic shock, it just made claims about what it recommends for conventional handgun bullets. As we all know by our crazy laws, people in governmental bureaucracy aren't always the most intelligent bunch.

On the other hand, a quick search for articles on remote ballistic pressure waves and hydrostatic shock revealed many detailed medical papers, including first-hand accounts of WWII and Korean trauma surgeons finding TBI (traumatic brain injury) in patients with wounds in the thoracic cavity. Another paper induced a slight pressure pulse in the brains of rats and they instantly lost consciousness and motor function. I'm not going to post links since I know most people won't read them, but it's all easily found if anybody cares to read up.

I really don't give a hoot about the "stopping power" debate, because I really think there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'm just saying that the 5.7x28mm, especially the non-fragmenting military rounds, do not have the same wounding mechanism as most pistol ammo. It's the way a military rifle wounds: a small, hard, high-velocity bullet entering thoracic cavity (your main chest cavity filled with fluids and squishy things) and the velocity of that bullet causes a peak pressure wave which disrupts the bloodflow in the major arteries and the nerves that those arteries supply. Even a brief, moderate pressure spike to the blood and fluid supplying the spinal cord and brain can cause loss of consciousness and paralysis.

Roy Weatherby purposely shot a lot of large game animals, including cape buffalo, in the abdominal cavity with a .257 Wby Magnum, getting one-shot kills, to demonstrate that his high-velocity magnum cartridges can kill just as effectively as the older big-bore magnums. And that was large animals with small brains... we're small animals with large brains, we're a lot more vulnerable to hydrostatic effects.

I'm not arguing that the 5.7x28mm is better or equal to powerful self-defence rounds, I'm just saying you shouldn't dismiss its effectiveness based on what we know about conventional handgun ballistics, because it is not a conventional handgun bullet.

ome on, if you're using a weapon in a life or death situation, it's a matter of life or death. I don't care where you are, or who you're defending against...if you don't take it seriously enough to require maximum power and capability, you shouldn't be using the gun. So choose the biggest/most powerful gun you can shoot AND carry, and don't deploy it unless you are in a SERIOUS situation
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We can agree to disagree on how big our gun needs to be. I was just suggesting to the OP that it's perfectly acceptable to buy a handgun because he wants to shoot for fun and practice. 99.9% of us will never face a situation where we need a gun. And I am of the opinion that if you DO end up in a life-or-death face off with a gun, it is more than likely the case that you've done something either stupid or wrong. I would focus more on avoiding that situation rather than making sure I have a hand cannon tucked down my shorts so I can blast my way out of that situation. If I really need a handgun for life and death, I'm getting the one that I can shoot straight and gives me enough bullets to keep an attacker at bay while I run for my life in the other direction.
 
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The FBI manual also presented no findings against hydrostatic shock, it just made claims about what it recommends for conventional handgun bullets. As we all know by our crazy laws, people in governmental bureaucracy aren't always the most intelligent bunch.
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Believe whatever you want to believe, but I think that the many folks who have lived after being shot with high velocity rifle rounds, even near the spinal column, proves that hydrostatic shock, or this pressure wave you refer to, is not an effective wounding mechanism. I certainly wouldn't rely on it in a handgun.

Jason
 
Basically, the theory that a near hit with a high-v round could damage the spinal cord doesn't hold weight.... not because hydrostatic shock doesn't exist, but because muscle is very elastic tissue, and bone which is thick and shaped the way human spine and neck bones are shaped to deflect glancing blows.

Of course a direct hit will kill or paralyze, but the tissues which surround the spine are designed to take damage.

Basically, hydrostatic shock has a much worse effect on low flexibility tissues like the liver, pancreas, brain, and spleen. But muscle tissues in the body tend to handle the stress of hydrostatic shock better.

And, the whole nervous system thing doesn't really hold water. The main difference between humans and other mammals is in the brain. That is where the real neuron difference is. Other mammals have just as complex a nervous system through the body, feel just about everything we feel, and in the case of a few (cats, dolphins for instance) have a cognitive array equal to or better than humanity.
 
Basically, the theory that a near hit with a high-v round could damage the spinal cord doesn't hold weight.... not because hydrostatic shock doesn't exist, but because muscle is very elastic tissue, and bone which is thick and shaped the way human spine and neck bones are shaped to deflect glancing blows.

Of course a direct hit will kill or paralyze, but the tissues which surround the spine are designed to take damage.

Basically, hydrostatic shock has a much worse effect on low flexibility tissues like the liver, pancreas, brain, and spleen. But muscle tissues in the body tend to handle the stress of hydrostatic shock better.

And, the whole nervous system thing doesn't really hold water. The main difference between humans and other mammals is in the brain. That is where the real neuron difference is. Other mammals have just as complex a nervous system through the body...
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That pretty much summarizes everything I was thinking, but I think you phrased it a lot better than I could.

Jason
 
I tell you what to everyone saying that the 5.7 cartridge isnt enough. I have three 30 round mags for my FiveSeveN and I garantee I can hit headshots with it out to 35 yards. I shot a wild hog with it in the ear, he dropped instantly. Its all about shot placement with any firearm and this one is just as good if you follow that rule. I do wish Crimson Trace would make a laser for it though.
 
Before considering the Five-Seven as a HD/SD gun, consider the Harold Fish Case. The Five-Seven round (depending on which you buy) is designed to pierce body armor and in the wrong circumstances could get you in trouble.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I would be concerned with how using such a round in SD/HD might come off.

That said, it's a cool looking gun that seems like it would be a great addition to a collection. I am considering one myself.
 
I tell you what to everyone saying that the 5.7 cartridge isnt enough. I have three 30 round mags for my FiveSeveN and I garantee I can hit headshots with it out to 35 yards. I shot a wild hog with it in the ear, he dropped instantly. Its all about shot placement with any firearm and this one is just as good if you follow that rule. I do wish Crimson Trace would make a laser for it though.
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I don't think anyone here would argue with your point about shot placement. A .22lr will kill instantaneously if the shot placement is perfect. Keep in mind though, that on a moving target, with your adrenaline going full blast, and time being crucial, those perfect headshots are not going to be so easy. I'm sure you know this though.

Jason
 
Before considering the Five-Seven as a HD/SD gun, consider the Harold Fish Case. The Five-Seven round (depending on which you buy) is designed to pierce body armor and in the wrong circumstances could get you in trouble.
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Not this again

All harold fish showed when it comes to choice in firearms was that a prosecutor can try to say anything they want. The firearm choice had nothing to do with him being found guilty. Feel free to use whatever caliber you want provided you can hit your target. Take into consideration the dangers of over-penetration, muzzle flash, muzzle noise, etc.
 
Not this again

All harold fish showed when it comes to choice in firearms was that a prosecutor can try to say anything they want. The firearm choice had nothing to do with him being found guilty. Feel free to use whatever caliber you want provided you can hit your target. Take into consideration the dangers of over-penetration, muzzle flash, muzzle noise, etc.
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Yes, prosecutor can say whatever they want and a jury can believe whatever they want. The average juror is not your or me, but more than likely an anti-gunner or at least someone ignorant about guns.

Harold Fish was railroaded and maybe he could have used a 9mm and still been railroaded. But I'd rather not run the risk of going to jail to defend myself when I have other guns that are perfectly serviceable.

After listening to Massad Ayoub (who I'd say knows more than either of us about such things) talk about his case, caliber didn't help him.

Again, I am not saying not to buy the gun. In fact, I am thinking of getting one. What I'm saying is consider it more a collectible and fun to shoot gun as opposed to a carry gun.

I am not trying to start a debate I am merely raising a point that is worth consideration.
 
IMHO the 5.7 is a bit large for CC, at least for me. I prefer my Sig P229 even though it is heavier.

I enjoy firing the FN and pick up a couple of boxes of 197 every time I'm at the gun shop, and I hope to start reloading it soon.

I was lucky enough to get one very lightly used at a nice discount.

If I had to pick one gun for SD it would be the Glock. I have a 17.
 
As one of the owners of EA I have to say something since I have never read SOMUCH incorrect BS on any forum anywhere about our ammunition.

Jason_G You have so little concept and knowledge of ballistics you should be held up as an example for all the net to be laughed at. Go sit back in your arm chair, Commando!

We are not in anyway loading our rounds over pressure.

Our ammo not only out performs 9mm it will match and surpass 230gr 45acp in both energy and wound cavity.


Do a search of youtube for Elite Ammunition.

We posted vidoes of our last testing session. Since I am sure we are lieing about it being 10% and 15% and really used 2% to make the test look good we tested every block with a airrifle in the upper left corner of each block and measured it to show the distance it traveld to very consistancy.


Threads like this are why I stopped reading or posting here a long time ago.
 
As one of the owners of EA I have to say something since I have never read SOMUCH incorrect BS on any forum anywhere about our ammunition.
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It's the internet, everyone's an expert. The difficult part with forums whether it's THR or any other one is sifting through all the BS to get a few actual facts.
 
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