Five Seven
- Thread starter Seattleimport
- Start date
- Status
GregGry
Member
double tapped..
Last edited:
GregGry
Member
I am surprized nobody has posted this yet:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/SS195 FMJ and SS197 ballistic tip (bare and heavy clothing).html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FN SS195 lead-free FMJ.html
VS:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var919mm.html
Its better then a .22lr pistol, but from what I have seen its performance is far below what people claim its capable of. Even the ss190 is shown at less then 10 inches of penetration. Sure the ss190 is capable of going through body armor, but that will even further diminish the penetration.
I would stick to the tried and trusted glock 19. With the money saved you can spend lots on training and ammo. I would trust the G19 to be able to stop a threat more then the 5.7, your paying about half the price for the gun, the ammo is considerably less, you can buy the ammo anywhere, the recoil isn't that much more, and it should be just as accurate.
Edit:
Their tests show that out of a handgun the .22mag with numerous loads out penetrated the 5.7. When your talking out of a rifle the average was 14.5 inches, which even the ps90 with ss195 couldn't do.
Even more so look at this:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22 Magnum CCI 30gr Maxi-Mag HP.html
If they necked down a 9mm or 10 mm case to a 70 grain rifle bullet, they very well might have something. However from what I see calling the 5.7 a 22mag out of a rifle is giving it an ego boost.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/SS195 FMJ and SS197 ballistic tip (bare and heavy clothing).html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FN SS195 lead-free FMJ.html
VS:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var919mm.html
Its better then a .22lr pistol, but from what I have seen its performance is far below what people claim its capable of. Even the ss190 is shown at less then 10 inches of penetration. Sure the ss190 is capable of going through body armor, but that will even further diminish the penetration.
I would stick to the tried and trusted glock 19. With the money saved you can spend lots on training and ammo. I would trust the G19 to be able to stop a threat more then the 5.7, your paying about half the price for the gun, the ammo is considerably less, you can buy the ammo anywhere, the recoil isn't that much more, and it should be just as accurate.
Edit:
That would be a compliment. Considering I would expect a .22mag with the 5.7 bullet would penetrate ballistics gel more then then a .22mag bullet. Some have suggested that the p90s longer barrel is needed to get the most out of the round, and that the pistol sells the round short. I don't believe that since the performance between the two is very close to the same.
Their tests show that out of a handgun the .22mag with numerous loads out penetrated the 5.7. When your talking out of a rifle the average was 14.5 inches, which even the ps90 with ss195 couldn't do.
Even more so look at this:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22 Magnum CCI 30gr Maxi-Mag HP.html
If they necked down a 9mm or 10 mm case to a 70 grain rifle bullet, they very well might have something. However from what I see calling the 5.7 a 22mag out of a rifle is giving it an ego boost.
chupacabrah
Member
I would say glock 19 from those choices. Reliability, cheap(er) ammo, etc.
Also may want to look into the Springfield XDs, S&W M&Ps.
The other smith you posted is supposed to be a pretty good gun also, but I have no experience with it.
Also may want to look into the Springfield XDs, S&W M&Ps.
The other smith you posted is supposed to be a pretty good gun also, but I have no experience with it.
Gelatin testing with the 5.7 including Elite Ammunition rounds:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57
mr.trooper
Member
None of the factory ammo will penetrate very well.
Handload with solid coppers.
Handload with solid coppers.
Seattleimport
Member
Seems to me like the 5.7 is designed to penetrate armor, clothing, and skin, and then stop inside the target. That sounds ideal, to me. After all, if a round plows straight through and keeps going then that's a lot of energy that's not used up in damaging the target. If the round enters and stops, 100% of the energy is spent on (and within!) the target.
earlthegoat2
Member
Probably go for the Glock or the SW. 9mm is cheap and a proven fight stopper. The 5.7 is all theory and no glory.
Hostile Amish
member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 522
Get a Glock 19 and you will not be dissapointed. The myth that the Five-Seven fires a rifle-type round is totally false, and should not be considered when choosing a defensive pistol. Military 5.7mm ammunition functions like a low-velocity .223, Civilian 5.7mm ammunition functions like .22 WMR.
Seattleimport
Member
And of course, now I'm reading all sorts of praise for the CZ 75 P01.
Decisions, decisions.
Decisions, decisions.
SweetKnuckles
Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2009
- Messages
- 63
Like you, I had never heard of this pistol or this round before. Interesting.
GregGry
Member
That thread is about worthless. Not only do they not list calibration of the gel, but they don't even give a accurate representation of actual penetration. Who knows what mix/calibration the gel was at.
Sure the bullet tumbles, but if the round can't make it to 10inches of penetration when going through a few layers of denim, would you really trust it to stop the threat if it has to go through winter clothing and bone? Hollow points out of a 9mm will offer way better penetration, can be found everywhere and are much cheaper.
I do like the 5.7 as a unique firearm, much like owning a suppressor, full auto, etc. However its a no brainer when it comes to comparing it pretty much any other decent handgun for a first time purchase. Training, pratice, a gun that fits the hand, availibility of ammo, performance of the ammo, etc are things that you should be concerned about. If there is no other gun then the 5.7 that works for the needs, then I guess the 5.7 it is. However when you look at it from which should I get, a glock 19 with 1,200 rounds of ammunition and a training class, or just a 5.7 for 1K dollars, I think its pretty clear which is the way to go. If the 5.7 offered 5.56 performance, it would be something. However we are talking equal or less then .22 mag out of handgun with factory ammo. Again you be the judge.
GregGry
Member
Show me a ballistics gel test of aftermarket ammo that shows even 9mm level of penetration. I remember seeing a ballistics gel test with a solid bullet that got to maybe 12.5 inches, however it didn't tumble at all. So it functioned the same as a 9mm minus the huge difference in hole size. I saw a picture on 5.7 fourm that showed a bullet to about 12 inches, however no information was given on calibration, shot distance, and the measuring ruler seemed to no be at the end of the block.
Last edited:
I agree 100% that the 5.7 isn't the best choice for a self-defense round, but equating it with the 22 magnum is less than the whole truth and downright misleading when you get into some of the rounds that have been developed that are tumbing as designed, penetrating (and not over-penetrating), and creating wound cavities on par with 9mm. I also think that while many here are understating the effectiveness of the 5.7, the guy at the range who told the OP that the 5.7 was a rifle bullet out of a handgun was overstaing the case. Is the 5.7 the best choice? No, but it's not a horrible choice. Is the Glock 19 the best choice? Probably not either. I'd rather see the girlfriend with a J or L frame Smith, a gun with a simple manual of arms and an effective round.
GregGry
Member
Ok I completely agree with what your saying. Its unfortunate that its really not at the level it was hyped to be. What suprized me the most is that the factory ammo showed little to no difference in penetration between the rifle and the pistol. Not to mention less then 100fps difference.
If the 5.7 pistol was 500$ I think it would be better since you would be getting a lot of capacity, low weight, and decent ergos. At the price its at your in HK territory, with a vastly unproven and over hyped proprietary round. It sure beats .25acp by a massive ammount. If they can get the costs down it might be interesting to see what happens.
If the 5.7 pistol was 500$ I think it would be better since you would be getting a lot of capacity, low weight, and decent ergos. At the price its at your in HK territory, with a vastly unproven and over hyped proprietary round. It sure beats .25acp by a massive ammount. If they can get the costs down it might be interesting to see what happens.
True story. I was in an Airsoft store buying a tac case for my PS90. I don't shoot Airsoft but they had some great cases for half the price that you pay at a gun shop for the same case. I brought my PS90 in to check the fit and the workers in the store went nuts over it, being a real one. I was then told about how of you shoot monkeys with the 5.7 they burst into flames. I asked them, whether they were sure that was true, and they swore that it was. How does this stuff get started?
JImbothefiveth
Member
Glock 19 or the SW9VE. (Is that an S&W?)
BTW, I see the reloads and liability topic taking over this thread.
The round is not ideal. The FBI reccomends it goes through at least a foot of ballistics gelatin.
What ammunition can you make, without running it over-pressure, that exceeds 9mm preformance?
BTW, I see the reloads and liability topic taking over this thread.
TheEngineer
Member
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2008
- Messages
- 35
To directly address the OP's question: my girlfriend also has very small hands and shoots my FN 5-7 much better than a G19. Though the G19 actually fits her hand better, 5.7x28 recoils considerably less than 9 mm, so she much prefers and is more accurate shooting the 5-7.
Two reasons NOT to choose the FN are serious report (think sharp, ear piercing crack) and muzzle flash (at least using factory 195 LF and 197 SR loads).
Her favorite handgun / ammo combo of all has been a GP100 firing 38's. It's hard to beat the peg grip-style frame for accomodating hands of all sizes and the weight really soaks up the recoil.
Two reasons NOT to choose the FN are serious report (think sharp, ear piercing crack) and muzzle flash (at least using factory 195 LF and 197 SR loads).
Her favorite handgun / ammo combo of all has been a GP100 firing 38's. It's hard to beat the peg grip-style frame for accomodating hands of all sizes and the weight really soaks up the recoil.
I don't think I said that any 5.7 ammo would "exceed" 9mm. There do seem to be variables that Elite Ammunition are tweaking beyond pressure to be getting some results that are at least getting close to 9mm. The bullet is tumbling in the first two inches as it is supposed to do creating wound cavities that are said to be on par with 9mm. Of course, if the ads are to be believed if you are shooting 9mm JHP into heavy clothing then they may well clog causing all sort of problems, so where does that leave you? I really think that it is very difficult to judge the 5.7 until the rounds that have been developed are thoroughly tested, and beyond the tests cited. There's has already been a lot done with this round but testing hasn't caught up with it. And with two new manufacturers (I already have rounds labeled "Hornady") I think we'll be seeing a lot more in addition to Elite Ammunition. For me the jury is still out on the 5.7, but I am seeing some good potential.
I will continue shooting my FiveSeveN pistol and PS90 and enjoy them. I will watch the tests as they become available and draw my own conclusions. And, if I am ever in a situation that I have to use them for self-defense I will use them, at the very least taking adavantage of their accuracy for shot placement, quick return shot capability, and high capacity for multiple strikes.
Over and out.
Thomas Garrett
Member
On the matchups, why not go for the SW40VE, got one, small, easy to carry, and you got the punch of a .40 cal. just a thought.
I'd have to respectfully disagree with about 100% this.
Just because a bullet doesn't pass through does not mean that it has done more damage than a through and through. It just means that it didn't have enough "umph" to exit. "Energy dump" as a wounding factor, at least in this line of thought, is a myth. The two major wounding factors for handgun ammo (assuming proper shot placement is a given) are diameter and depth of penetration, because these are what contribute to the total volume of the permanent cavity.
Jason
For traditional handguns this may be true, but understand on a living target, ballistic gelatin is only half the battle. The reason the 5.7mm is still viable is that its velocity is high enough that it can penetrate a torso and still be moving at a high enough velocity that the shockwave can ripple through tissue. But a lot of people also misunderstand the terminal ballistics of small calibres on humans at close range.
I think a lot of the arguments for expansion come wounding effects on animals. What you need to realize is that humans have a MUCH more sensitive nervous system. We have well over a hundred billion neurons in a very small body. Most animals our size have 1/10th that. Especially with deer, they have a thick body and for a pressure wave affect the spine and central nervous system, you'd have to have a very fast bullet penetrating very deep and crossing close to the spine.
A significant shock to our nervous system, either from the energy of a large bullet, or a small bullet at great velocity, will usually incapacitate more readily than large flesh wounds. People lose arms and legs, and get impaled by large objects and live to tell about it. Some drive themselves to the hospital. Few people are able function after the shock of a high-velocity bullet that crosses anywhere near the spine or major nerve.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
