What/Where is a good place to read the history on the hows/why's of their loss of firearms. Doesn't have to be the UK only. I am interested in the topic overall. The right (natural right) to be able to defend ones self seems natural to me and wanna read more into the loss of such a natural right.
UK gun control history.
- Thread starter Beentown
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Here is a good start, it says here that self defense was no longer a reason to own a firearm as of 1968.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
"Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm"
Here is a recent story about self defense and attempting to protect one's livelihood in the U.K. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/09/robert-farago/gun-rights-why-the-uk-is-a-lost-cause/
Here seems to be a very good rundown from the 1900's and up.
A Brief History of British Gun Control
(or, How to Disarm the Law Abiding Populace by Stealth)
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle558-20100221-07.html
"However in 1903 Britain passed its first ever "gun control" law, a minor one requiring a permit to carry a handgun and restricting the age of purchasers. It was the first toe over a slippery slope towards complete firearms prohibition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom
"Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm"
Here is a recent story about self defense and attempting to protect one's livelihood in the U.K. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/09/robert-farago/gun-rights-why-the-uk-is-a-lost-cause/
Here seems to be a very good rundown from the 1900's and up.
A Brief History of British Gun Control
(or, How to Disarm the Law Abiding Populace by Stealth)
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle558-20100221-07.html
"However in 1903 Britain passed its first ever "gun control" law, a minor one requiring a permit to carry a handgun and restricting the age of purchasers. It was the first toe over a slippery slope towards complete firearms prohibition."
For an excellent study of the history of gun control, the erosion of gun and self defense rights, and the rise in violent crime in Great Britain see, Guns and Violence, the English Experience by Joyce Lee Malcolm (Harvard University Press, 2002). It's well worth reading.
Some more stuff from Dave Kopel at http://www.davekopel.com/international.htm
All The Way Down The Slippery Slope:
http://guncite.com/journals/okslip.html
http://guncite.com/journals/okslip.html
Blackstone
Member
Feel free to ask any questions, and I'll try to answer them.
gamestalker
member
This has long been an active interest of mine as well. I also like to see how violent crime correlates to countries, and our US. So far, I've seen a clear pattern of increased violent crime in those places in which gun control has prevailed, or in which guns have been all but completely eliminated from their societies, with only a couple of exceptions.
I recently communicated with a fellow in Russia about this very topic, unfortunate fellow. He sighted examples using what he feels, and I agree is probably embellished statistics that support the anti mind set of that country.
GS
I recently communicated with a fellow in Russia about this very topic, unfortunate fellow. He sighted examples using what he feels, and I agree is probably embellished statistics that support the anti mind set of that country.
GS
It starts with a social disease that sits much higher than the topic of gun control. It starts when people accept the notion that individual responsibility is obsolete and can be better "managed" by government.
That's what gives rise to the nanny state with all its chattels: gun control, health and safety laws gone mad, interference by government in how kids are raised, political correctness gone over the top and of course the weakening of a nation's sovereign identity by giving in to "human rights" pressures from surrounding countries.
That's what gives rise to the nanny state with all its chattels: gun control, health and safety laws gone mad, interference by government in how kids are raised, political correctness gone over the top and of course the weakening of a nation's sovereign identity by giving in to "human rights" pressures from surrounding countries.
Ignition Override
Member
Blackstone:
Many US gun owners still have the notion that private citizens have no guns in either the UK or Australia.
I'm curious as to about what year UK citizens were able to apply for and buy them After the confiscation?
About 100 yards inside an ancient gate in the old town of York, England, about a year ago, there was a hobby shop selling many toy versions of various semi-auto rifles etc.
Many US gun owners still have the notion that private citizens have no guns in either the UK or Australia.
I'm curious as to about what year UK citizens were able to apply for and buy them After the confiscation?
About 100 yards inside an ancient gate in the old town of York, England, about a year ago, there was a hobby shop selling many toy versions of various semi-auto rifles etc.
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Wiki is never a good source for any serious research, nor is it respected as such.
At my sons school, they receive either an "F" or "I" if wiki is used as a source, and for good reason.
Well if you look at England, Wales and Scotland you can't as an ordinary Joe get a firearm for self defense purposes. The situation in Northern Ireland is a little bit different, there are people there carrying firearms for "protection" but they have a special "history."
The bottom line is this: whilst you cannot apply for a firearm for self defense or home defense, there have been instances where people have defended themselves with firearms at home, but in those circumstances it was a legally-held firearm which happened to be "at hand." Each case gets examined on its own merits. All the cases I know about have involved shotguns in a rural setting.
For sporting and hunting purposes an ordinary Joe can have a licensed firearm as long as he passes the required background checks and he gets the appropriate "authority to purchase" slot on his firearms certificate (FAC). Each firearm purchased is then registered by serial number. The same applies to suppressors (which are called moderators here). If no serial is present it is listed as NVM (no visible marking).
There are two kinds of FAC, a section 1 and a section 2.
Section 2 is for shotguns that can hold no more than 2 cartridges plus one in the chamber. When applying for that FAC the onus is on the police to say why you can't have it. Once you have that Section 2 FAC you can buy as many shotguns as you like.
Section 1 applies to rifled firearms with a minimum barrel length, black powder pistols and rifles and also shotguns that exceed the ammunition carrying limits of a Section 2 shotgun (eg. a Saiga 12 with a 20 round drum magazine or a Benelli M1 with a 9 shot tube).
The onus is on the applicant to convince the police why he needs a Section 1 weapon.
Of these weapons, only the rimfire rifles and the shotguns can be semi-auto, everything else must be manually loaded. Revolvers are not regarded as semi-automatic so you could have a long barreled .44 Mag if you wanted, but in my opinion that is a more like a carbine.
Crossbows are not subject to license, but if you have an air pistol or air rifle beyond a certain foot/pounds rating, it must go on a Section 1 FAC.
There are no magazine restrictions for Section 1 firearms and no restrictions on things like muzzle brakes and flash hiders.
Once you have authority to purchase on your FAC (or "ticket") you can go to a shop and buy the item and walk out with it. That applies to suppressors also. If I found one I liked, I could just pay for it over the counter and walk out with it. Probably one of the few areas we have it better than the US...
The bottom line is this: whilst you cannot apply for a firearm for self defense or home defense, there have been instances where people have defended themselves with firearms at home, but in those circumstances it was a legally-held firearm which happened to be "at hand." Each case gets examined on its own merits. All the cases I know about have involved shotguns in a rural setting.
For sporting and hunting purposes an ordinary Joe can have a licensed firearm as long as he passes the required background checks and he gets the appropriate "authority to purchase" slot on his firearms certificate (FAC). Each firearm purchased is then registered by serial number. The same applies to suppressors (which are called moderators here). If no serial is present it is listed as NVM (no visible marking).
There are two kinds of FAC, a section 1 and a section 2.
Section 2 is for shotguns that can hold no more than 2 cartridges plus one in the chamber. When applying for that FAC the onus is on the police to say why you can't have it. Once you have that Section 2 FAC you can buy as many shotguns as you like.
Section 1 applies to rifled firearms with a minimum barrel length, black powder pistols and rifles and also shotguns that exceed the ammunition carrying limits of a Section 2 shotgun (eg. a Saiga 12 with a 20 round drum magazine or a Benelli M1 with a 9 shot tube).
The onus is on the applicant to convince the police why he needs a Section 1 weapon.
Of these weapons, only the rimfire rifles and the shotguns can be semi-auto, everything else must be manually loaded. Revolvers are not regarded as semi-automatic so you could have a long barreled .44 Mag if you wanted, but in my opinion that is a more like a carbine.
Crossbows are not subject to license, but if you have an air pistol or air rifle beyond a certain foot/pounds rating, it must go on a Section 1 FAC.
There are no magazine restrictions for Section 1 firearms and no restrictions on things like muzzle brakes and flash hiders.
Once you have authority to purchase on your FAC (or "ticket") you can go to a shop and buy the item and walk out with it. That applies to suppressors also. If I found one I liked, I could just pay for it over the counter and walk out with it. Probably one of the few areas we have it better than the US...
Blackstone
Member
I'm going to a gun control debate being held in London this coming Monday. Wayne laPierre is one of the main speakers, I hope to meet and chat with him.
That's unfortunate, I can think of several THR members I would rather hear speak than Wayne "evil video games" LaPierre...
Blackstone
Member
Just posting here to say that I attended the event I posted about above. It was less of a debate, and more UK gun owners telling Wayne about the situation in the UK. It will eventually be televised in the US, and is well worth a watch as you will learn a lot about the process of obtaining a firearm, the difficulties encountered and the general attitudes to firearms in this country. I'll update this thread or make a new one when the video comes out.
Please do and thanks in advance.
Prince Yamato
Member
Wiki is never a good source for any serious research, nor is it respected as such.
At my sons school, they receive either an "F" or "I" if wiki is used as a source, and for good reason.
"Wikipedia" is not a source in itself, but its citations can be invaluable. Read the article, then check the footnotes. You can often click the links in the footnotes for expanded reading on cites topics.
I'd be willing to bet my doctoral degree that Wikipedia is a fantastic resource. You just have to know how to use it.
monotonous_iterancy
Member
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- May 27, 2012
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- 915
Well, I think the NRA is a strictly American situation, and I wouldn't want them to lose focus.
Nonetheless, I do think that U.K gun owners can use an NRA type organization. They have no one to represent their concerns or speak for them. A way to organize gun owners there in a political fashion might help, if they aren't too far gone.
You'd think that with the massive widespread riots they had recently, attitudes might be changing. I don't get the impression from over here that they are though.
Cosmoline
Member
Gun control has become very deeply ingrained in generations of Brits. It's a good case study in how such things can come to pass, and absolutely a model many here would like to follow. There was a time when firearms were unregulated in the UK. The British Bulldog revolver was an forerunner to modern concealed carry pieces. Many in the Empire were known for their shooting prowess and fine collections. TE Lawrence practiced in his back yard. And of course in spite of the fixation on longbows, firearms had been a key part of personal armament from the War of the Roses on down. From the blunderbuss used to ward off highwaymen to the ubiquitous gentleman's sidearm. The idea that English culture has always shunned the gun or favored swords and bows is anachronistic hogwash. The industrial revolution was born in the UK, and much of the impetus was the need to build more firearms.
The nation was disarmed through fear. First it was fear of the underclass revolting against the elites. Then it was fear of returning soldiers doing the same. Then it was fear of criminals. Then it was fear of mass killings. We saw our own antis try to emulate this model in their recent push, and thankfully fail. But they'll try again.
There's the Countryside Alliance, but it's focused on limited sporting uses. To speak openly of owning a firearm to defend against criminals is to be labeled a loony over there. And unfortunately the messages have been so deeply ingrained now it would take generations to change.
The nation was disarmed through fear. First it was fear of the underclass revolting against the elites. Then it was fear of returning soldiers doing the same. Then it was fear of criminals. Then it was fear of mass killings. We saw our own antis try to emulate this model in their recent push, and thankfully fail. But they'll try again.
There's the Countryside Alliance, but it's focused on limited sporting uses. To speak openly of owning a firearm to defend against criminals is to be labeled a loony over there. And unfortunately the messages have been so deeply ingrained now it would take generations to change.
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monotonous_iterancy
Member
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Previous attempts were successful...
Remember the 1934 NFA and the Bonus Army?
Welcome to the 1968 GCA.
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