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Best Gas System

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Nom de Forum said:
So if that is true, adding a piston rod to an AR serves the same function as a security blanket by providing emotional security not additional physical security.:D
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If you add a piston to an AR, it will have two :)

The problem with retreating into a big desert is a lack of water and food, unless you have a cache of water and food in the big desert you are retreating to. Retreating into the desert also means you are removing yourself from supporting and being supported by your community
 
Archangel14 said:
Now imagine that I won't be in actual long term combat with my chosen firearm (because that will never happen with me), but that I have to confront 10 guys who want to hurt me and my family, and that my purpose is to put up a fight and boogie away asap. What then? AR or Garand? DI or piston? Oh, and imagine that although I reside in a suburban area, I'm surrounded by lots and lots of wide open desert, into which I may try to withdraw.
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Are we talking about a 2A situation? Modern day redcoats? I'd say a good mil-spec or better lightweight AR carbine would be the ticket... though you have to realize that if they know where you live and roll on you and your family with that kind of force, you have very slim chances of making your little getaway to the desert. The best you can hope for is to give a good account of yourself and drag a few of them with you. Practice quick hits on head sized targets at close range from barricaded positions, because the bad guys are likely to have plates. You might want to look into some plates yourself. A good carbine course or similar training would be a good place to start.

If you're thinking 2A, I'd say planning for the kind of things you might be doing before TPTB know who you are and where you live would be a more useful inquiry. Getting into a close quarters shootout with a superior force shouldn't be in anyone's plan... though it is worth giving some thought and preparation anyway.
 
MistWolf said:
If you add a piston to an AR, it will have two :)
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I know, that is why I specified a "piston rod". It is simpler to visualize for people unfamiliar with Stoner's fixed piston moving cylinder concept. That is why earlier in the thread I mentioned that the MAS 49/56 is a true direct impingement gas system instead of the sorta like but not really DI system the AR has.

The problem with retreating into a big desert is a lack of water and food, unless you have a cache of water and food in the big desert you are retreating to. Retreating into the desert also means you are removing yourself from supporting and being supported by your community
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That is why I have many more pounds of water stored in 5 gallon and smaller containers at my home than pounds of ammunition. I also have months worth of food with a 25 year shelf life. But most importantly I have water purification equipment. It is not just the lack of water it is also the lack of clean water that is the problem. Fleeing to the desert and surviving means fleeing toward the few available water sources along with every one else. Even the most pure of natural sources will soon be contaminated. I would not count on any cache of supplies remaining undetected by all the other people fleeing in the same direction as you. Unless it is absolutely necessary to flee, hunkering down with supplies and cooperating with your neighbors is a best survival strategy during a disaster.
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Well, I'd go 5.45x39 AK :p Best of every world to me. Shot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with a loop sling last weekend, every bit as accurate and flat shooting as an AR, and tougher and more reliable. Red dot up front on an Ultimak and a pile of Bulgarian mags.

But if you aren't into AKs, I'd say the next best, maybe better (because of the sheer number of them around) choice would be a simple, well built DI AR. If you are thinking end of days, the redcoats are coming, shooting war, there's a limitless supply of spare parts, magazines, and ammo in every military base, police station, and many a home in the US. And, even though I love my AKs, an AR will be perfectly reliable if it is kept clean and has good parts to begin with. Lots of good, affordable choices.

Picture1104141538_1.jpg

My twin brother's Russian Saiga up top, 5.45 with a Primary Arms 6x scope, and my Polish Tantal, wearing a Vortex Strikefire on an Ultimak and a Saiga handguard. (Long story ;) ) These are our fighting, Appleseed, and competition rifles.

A 5.45 or 5.56 rifle will shoot at a good combat zero out to 500 yards, and holds more rounds, shoots faster, is safer for in-house use, and is lighter, and has much lighter ammo and mags, than a .30-06 or .308 rifle. M1s, M1As, FN-FALs, and other .30 cal guns are very cool rifles, but I don't think they are worth the weight, lower parts/mags availability and higher ammo cost.
 
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If you are thinking end of days, the redcoats are coming, shooting war
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No, I don't think I even inferred this. But here's my deal: I live in a state where things can go sideways pretty quickly. California is governed by the same type of people who ran Detroit all these years. About 50% of the local population is not here lawfully. Nice people, but most have a different idea from me as to what the role of government should be....a far different idea. Our country has changed dramatically since the 60's. Far too many of our fellow citizens look at a place like China with envy and awe. Too many really believe that Fidel is a great man. Too many of them wish to embark upon a Brave New World, which is nothing more than the old, tired world of the lost Soviet experiment. There may come a time when my fellow citizens feel like they need to do my family harm. Hopefully not. But I want to be able to defend and move quickly. That would mean passing through BIG desert to get to a place of safety.

It appears that the DI gun is the way to go. Now my LGS has a Stag 3T for $925. What'd you guys think?
 
I wasn't meaning to belittle you at all, I meant "shooting war" seriously. To me, a huge riot headed towards your suburb IS a "shooting war", heck, a couple of thugs trying to break down the door is a "shooting war" in my house and to my family.

That's why I keep a fighting rifle.

My brother and I got my dad a Stag Model 4 (M16A3 clone) for Father's Day to match what he shoots in the Army Reserves, and it has been flawless since June, shooting mostly crappy TulAmmo (out of PMags). If the Stag is your best option, it won't let you down. I think there are better deals out there, like the S&W M&P-15 Sport. I had one for 7 months, shot 800 rounds in 200 yard matches in the pouring rain and down in the dirt all day at Appleseed shoots without failing a single time, even when not cleaned much. BUT with "desert" in mine, you want something with a dust cover or an AK. Could always use the old painter's tape trick on a Sport.

Picture1104141603_1.jpg

This gun was under $750 including GI loop sling, light, or red dot.

If your plan for family safety involves serious travel, that's another vote for a 5.56 or 5.45 gun. That Stag 3-T looks squared away and my dad's Stag Model 4 has been flawless even with bad ammo.
 
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"I live in a state where things can go sideways pretty quickly"
Too late; you're already forbidden from possessing proper defensive arms, so now it's just a question of how much compromise in utility. To a certain extent, we're all in that boat (34 NFA) and are forced to choose between large rifles and small pistols. Otherwise, select-fire suppressed PDWs would be the gold-standard for home/hearth defense arms, backed up by the rifles/shotguns we still have ready access to.

In CA, I'd almost be leaning towards a nice SKS in some respects, but only if there is such a thing as a quality and lightweight stock made for them. Cut down the weight a bit, and you have a solid platform that is simultaneously well-sealed against the elements and extremely accessible in terms of cleaning and clearing. Heck, I'd suggest the VZ58 again as a more-modern SKS substitute, and the 5.56NATO CA variant from Czechpoint as the modern SKS substitute. With a properly-designed semi-auto conversion (i.e. not an older Century offering) there's simply very little to go wrong in those guns*, and if it does, it's a lot easier to address than an AR or AK with their tiny ejection ports. Both AK and AR will require frequent disassembly to brush sand from nooks and crannies; the open-top SKS/VZ layout is actually easier to clean particulates from in that way. It's "AK" dust cover is also retained by push pins, so service of the hidden parts is no worse than an AR (and less liable to blow off than an AK cover ;))

TCB

*at least as little as an AK or FAL

Me: "No gun anywhere is driven entirely back under gas pressure; the case would rupture upon unlocking"

Briansmithwins: "That's exactly how blowback operated firearms work."

Name of the thread is "best gas system," implying something more complicated than the beautiful simplicity that is blowback (and to a lesser extent delayed blowback or recoil operation). IMO, recoil operation is for applications where the guns' cycle is too violent to be tolerated for the desired weapon weight (so 'small' service pistols, or really big anti-materiel rifles), and gas operated for everything else that isn't low powered enough to be blowback.

My comment was addressed to the folks out there who claim the AK is a 'short stroke' because the piston is not driven by gas pressure its full length of travel. I argue that no piston gun of any kind is, since the whole purpose of the exercise is to prevent the unlocked bolt from ever seeing pressure, which it will if the operating piston is under load throughout its whole travel. That's not even getting into how much juice would be imparted to a bolt/carrier of any type were it truly driven back for such a long distance under pressure (think projectile level energies :eek:)
 
I wasn't meaning to belittle you at all, I meant "shooting war" seriously.
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You have belittled me....and I feel terrible. Just kidding! Actually, I considered a S&W Sport, as you are not the first person to tell me that it's a better option for the money. But quite honestly, no one has been able to tell me why it's a better option that something other than a basic Stag. The 3T has a chrome lined barrel, M4 ramps, chromed and staked bolt (properly staked, I assume), a lifetime warranty, and a dust cover. Yes, a dust cover. I'm just thinking that for a about $200 hundred more, which gets you some really nice furniture and sights on the Stag, it's a worthy investment. I have yet to hear anyone complain about their Stag purchase.
 
Archangel14 said:
Actually, I considered a S&W Sport, as you are not the first person to tell me that it's a better option for the money. But quite honestly, no one has been able to tell me why it's a better option that something other than a basic Stag. The 3T has a chrome lined barrel, M4 ramps, chromed and staked bolt (properly staked, I assume), a lifetime warranty, and a dust cover. Yes, a dust cover. I'm just thinking that for a about $200 hundred more, which gets you some really nice furniture and sights on the Stag, it's a worthy investment. I have yet to hear anyone complain about their Stag purchase.
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Some consider the Melonite lined barrel of the Sport to be more durable and accurate than a chrome lined barrel (up for debate, not a big deal). The Sport is very well made and very affordable, and the medium thickness barrel is, in my opinion, better than the typical M4 profile or pencil barrel you often see on budget 16" barreled guns. I consider the fixed front sight to be plus compared to rail mounted sights, but of course, not everyone feels that way. As an AK guy, even though I use Red Dots as my primary, I want my irons to be as dependable as possible, so I like a fixed front sight post.

That said, you won't hear me talking you out of the Stag. The BUIS are good, it's ready to take an optic (I recommend a Vortex Strikefire I- cheap ($130) because the Strikefire II just came out, comes with a mount AND a 2x magnifier, it works great and has an unbelievable warranty) and the free float is nice and ready to take a good loop sling. My brother and I chose a Stag for my dad, and it has performed excellently. Good rifle set up :) I'll still take my 5.45 AK though :D

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The Sport is very well made and very affordable, and the medium thickness barrel is, in my opinion, better than the typical M4 profile or pencil barrel you often see on budget 16" barreled guns.
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I was unaware of this. I'm wondering if the 3T has an M4 profile barrel?
 
Stag says it has a "government profile" barrel, which I think is the same thing.

I doubt it's a deal breaker. It's more my personal preference based on my Appleseed shooting and 200 yard rifle matches, extended, high volume, precision shooting, where a thicker profile barrel which is less sensitive to sling pressure and more importantly, changes in heat, which cause changes in point of impact. With a thin barrel, the impact of my shots can change notably within the course of a 40 shot AQT or match, as well as deviate based on the pressure from my sling in different positions.

In a lightweight, defensive rifle, I really doubt it matters at all.
 
I doubt it's a deal breaker. It's more my personal preference based on my Appleseed shooting and 200 yard rifle matches, extended, high volume, precision shooting, where a thicker profile barrel which is less sensitive to sling pressure and more importantly, changes in heat, which cause changes in point of impact.
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Too bad the govt profile barrel is skinny under the hand guard and thick from the front sight base out, where there isn't any force on it.

BSW
 
Nom de Forum said:
I know, that is why I specified a "piston rod"
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By gumbo, you did. I missed the rod the first time around. "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Thread"

That is why I have many more pounds of water stored in 5 gallon and smaller containers at my home than pounds of ammunition. I also have months worth of food with a 25 year shelf life. But most importantly I have water purification equipment. It is not just the lack of water it is also the lack of clean water that is the problem. Fleeing to the desert and surviving means fleeing toward the few available water sources along with every one else. Even the most pure of natural sources will soon be contaminated. I would not count on any cache of supplies remaining undetected by all the other people fleeing in the same direction as you. Unless it is absolutely necessary to flee, hunkering down with supplies and cooperating with your neighbors is a best survival strategy during a disaster.
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Smart man. In our church, we plan to pull together as a community during disasters, not heading for the hills as individuals. Considering how well the church has dealt with disasters in the past, I'd say it's a wise plan to follow
 
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If you don't trust those living with you in your community, and you can't trust your government to protect your rights. a gun isn't going to solve the issue.

You need to move.

Thousands have already. It's not wrong to compare CA to Detroit - Detroit in the '80s was no fun, do you want to still live their in 2015? Many saw the handwriting on the wall and bailed out. Same as New Orleans.

Move. To whatever other state you like, buy whatever gun you like (we do,) and enjoy living in a community where you are part of the population, not an outlier. Then you build relationships and trust where, if things go badly, you already know who you barter and trade with, along with them trusting you.

You don't need to be the odd man out when the chips are down, and those ten guys from the local neighborhood security authority have been delegated to evict you as the main troublemaker.

You should already be a part of that group. That is the main issue - get involved, don't get distanced.
 
"The AR18 / 180 system has been copied more than any of them. Must be something to it."
Bingo. Probably the only other platform that's more prolific in imitation is the AK (and to a lesser extent, M1 Garand) gas system/bolt combo. And I think that's mostly because it's older and more intuitive. The BRNO gas system is also widely, widely seen over the course of machinegun history (ZB26, 37, BREN, the Degtyarov series have similar bolt carrier/pistons, and I believe the M249 along with numerous other independently-developed early European machineguns). I think that is mainly because a straight-line piston/op rod carrying the bolt assembly is fairly obvious, though.

Contrary to what many might say, I think there is a reason DI Stoner systems all look the same, and why non-DI designs using the same Stoner bolt concept show much greater diversity (even if you constrain them to gas operation types like short or long stroke, you find bullpups, forward ejection, total ambidexterity, belt feeds). I think it's a great system when you have 50 years to perfect it, but it is simply not very adaptable on the fly to other configurations. The same sort of issue with roller-delay actions (simply due to the precise timing, there was a real limitation on exactly what you could do with the architecture without a ton of expensive R&D) limited them to a handful of cartridges, with very little commonality between the platforms, and little ability to deviate from the G3/MP5 layout. The very modularity of the design traps you into a certain set of pre-determined configurations, and tremendous difficulty reusing the technology if you wish to deviate beyond them. The AR18 is more complicated than DI or roller-delay, but that complication gives you more degrees of freedom to reconfigure the design in many diverse ways.

TCB
 
Moving does seem to be a better option.

I'm I mistaken or are most all of the suggestions in this thread no longer legal in your state?
 
And, even though I love my AKs, an AR will be perfectly reliable if it is kept clean and has good parts to begin with.
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"Reliable" to me means trustworthiness and dependability even when forced to function under adverse conditions. "Perfectly reliable if kept clean", doesn't make any sense. If a gun has to be clean to be reliable, it isn't reliable at all.
 
"Reliable" to me means trustworthiness and dependability even when forced to function under adverse conditions. "Perfectly reliable if kept clean", doesn't make any sense. If a gun has to be clean to be reliable, it isn't reliable at all.
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Maybe.

There are plenty of guns known to be neat-o and interesting and even useful, but not steel-hammer reliable under even the very best of conditions. Saiga 12 shotguns, 1911s, maybe the old Remington 740 autoloaders, etc. Some are great/unstoppable, some are ok, some can't seem to be kept running for more than a few rounds even when china plate clean. So "reliable if kept clean" makes some sense for some guns.

Now when it comes to AKs and ARs, that's not really the case. They've proved that most examples will keep on ticking for many thousands of rounds without needing more than a squirt of oil every thousand rounds or so. (Google "Filthy 14." Over 44K rounds without cleaning an AR?!?)

BUT, the idea that any of us, anywhere, ever will be in a situation where we'd have to fire even a hundred rounds -- let alone 1,000 or 10,000 -- without giving our guns a field strip and cleaning is pretty absurd. Even if that meant wiping down the bolt and internals with a bit of siphoned diesel fuel and someone's old t-shirt, that's going to be perfectly possible in any (even post-apocalyptic) situation one might imagine.
 
fireside44 said:
"Reliable" to me means trustworthiness and dependability even when forced to function under adverse conditions. "Perfectly reliable if kept clean", doesn't make any sense. If a gun has to be clean to be reliable, it isn't reliable at all.
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"Kept clean" here meant what Sam said- a wipe off every couple hundred rounds, which is pretty manageable even under horrible conditions.

That said, I'm still an AK guy ;) I trust my AKs, none of them have ever failed me even when nasty.
 
I'm not sure what is driving people to completely dismiss CA as an appealing place to live. To be fair, I live in N. CA which is particularly appealing accepting that the population throughout the state has skewed to include a greater number of illegal entrants and there are more restrictions in more aspects of life than many other places. But it's hard to describe how many appealing things there are to enjoy that offset some of the negatives. I should add that I'm not a CA native.
But sticking to the firearms front, virtually all of the options discussed in this thread are viable here in CA save for a few things:
1. Mags are limited to 10 rounds. Magazines that have a capacity greater than 10 rounds must be 'blocked' to limit them to 10 rounds;
2. Most semi-auto long guns must have a 'bullet button' to cope with restrictions on mag removal/replacement;
3. There is a restrictive list of what handguns can be readily purchased from an authorized FFL. In that context there is a 10 day waiting period and no more than one handgun can be purchased within a 30 day period. Further, if the desired handgun is not on the approved (CA DOJ) list, an FFL can sell it using an exemption called SSL (single shot exemption) which is a a circuitous technique to work around legal restrictions. Unfortunately the SSE loophole is going away at the end of this year.
So it is limiting, but not impossible. Certainly less appealing than other states and if owning a diverse collection of firearms is ones preeminent priority, then this is not the place to be. I should add that a number of listed restrictions have been taken to court and there is a very good chance that virtually all of them will be overturned in the next 18-14 months.
Ultimately, like every other place in the U.S., how people choose to behave and what they are likely to do in the face of a truly disastrous situation is an exercise best left to the reader.
B

JRWhit said:
Moving does seem to be a better option.

I'm I mistaken or are most all of the suggestions in this thread no longer legal in your state?
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Oh and to expand two earlier entries, another firearm for the OP to consider is the Tavor. Battle tested, desert tested, highly maneuverable and easily serviced. Certainly isn't the wide availability of parts like there are for AK's and conventional AR's but I don't know that is a big concern for the chosen scenario.
B
 
MistWolf said:
If you add a piston to an AR, it will have two :)

The problem with retreating into a big desert is a lack of water and food, unless you have a cache of water and food in the big desert you are retreating to. Retreating into the desert also means you are removing yourself from supporting and being supported by your community
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Yes, I would think that lack of food, water, and shelter would kill you faster than the wrong gas system.
 
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