Defensive shotgun decision

I've got 870s, and I've got 1100's. I've got 390/391/3901s. I've got M2s, and I've got SBEIIs. I've even got a 1201FP kicking around here somewhere. In other words, I've got a fair number of scatterguns suitable for defensive purposes.

My HD choice is a M2 Field 21" RS barrel with a +2 magazine extension. That choice is based on its adjustable ergonomics (it points where I look), it's SD-friendly manual of arms, and the fact that it's been 100% reliable from day one with any field or SD load.

Since OP stated having time on his hands to practice, I will vote for the pump first, semi later if still interested option. I liked the car transmission analogy. One has to be able to drive a manual transmission even if the wife prefers the automatic. I would add believers should buy 3 1/2" capable shotguns. I did not!

Although a pump shotgun would seem to make more sense, I still like a short side-x-side with cylinder bores. My issued riot gun was of course an 870, but I never could get cozy with it. Our course of fire was 25 buckshot rounds at paper people at 15 yards and 5 slugs at a metal man 50 yards away. All rounds were 2/34 shells, but lordy the pain after 30 rounds. The metal man was the last 5 shots and it really took some concentration not to flinch with the shoulder already hurting from the buckshot. So, I guess I learned to hate that gun; would rather have an old school double barrel. I can't imagine needing more than 2 blasts from a 12 gauge, unless you are a cop at work.

If I was buying new, I'd look for a Mossberg 590A1. If used, an 870 Police Magnum from 2001 or earlier.

Truth is, it's hard to find a crappy pump shotgun. Even the budget Maverick 88 (under license by Mossberg) will give you many years of trouble-free performance. Mine is going on 16 years old, thousands of rounds, and nary an issue. That said, I do believe your best bets lie in the two shotguns I recommended above.

I'll always have a soft spot for the trusty reliable 870. Even though I have access to various other pumps, semis's and over/unders, the Remington 870 is probably the one that get's used the most. I own three of them. When you get one brand new (Usually an Express model) sometimes the chambers might need a couple of passes with a chamber hone on a drill to prevent shells from sticking. This is just a one time thing though. Once this is done they won't give you any more problems afterwards. I've used my 870's for trapshooting, skeet, and hunting. This is one of those shotguns that you can use and abuse to no end and nothing breaks on it. They are prone to rust though and you should keep them coated with a light coat of oil. I retired from the military a couple of years ago. When I retired all 4 military branches were still using Remington 870's that had been around since the early 1950's. The guns were twice my age. If that doesn't prove their reliability and longevity then nothing will.

If the class you are taking practices at 15 yards find another class. If they are emphasizing Gee Whiz stuff like slug changovers, find a new class. They are training you for the wrong war.

Practice at 5 to 10 feet with buckshot at silouette targets, and practice a few jabs and butt strokes, too. You will probably find that the shooter, not the gun, is the limiting factor.

5 feet is a whole different mindset and stress level than 15 yards.

Get a pump, and master it. You can own two or three for the price of a reliable semi-auto. Or heck, you could get a pump and take a professional shooting course with the savings. Skillset is always better than hardware choice (as long as the hardware works).

From there it's Ford vs Chevy. I like the 870 marginally more than the Mossberg 500 series. But they are effectively the same thing.

l still say a double gun is the best. Never ever will a civilian need more than 2 shots from a shotgun. Practice at extremely close range, as suggested, is useless. Why shoot a shotgun at all if the distance to your attacker is so close. No reason at all to practice shooting a shotgun at 5 feet. Might as well, no, better to have a handgun if that's the range you expect trouble. The only reason to have a shotgun for defense purposes is to not miss. Who misses at 5 feet?

Another consideration: Did you know that all the blasts from shotguns in the movies that throw human beings backward is simply movie crap? A shotgun or any other weapon you can legally buy will not move your opponent backwards. He simply gets shot and falls. And at very close distance, I'd sure want a very short weapon, like a handgun, that could not be grabbed before it could be fired. It seems there are so many people speaking with authority who have no authority to say what they do.

Pump actions gun will fail if the user is under stress. They don't cycle all by themselves. Short strokes by users, no matter their practice level, occur. Autos fail because failure is inherent to the design. Get a double.

WOW, are you just trolling for grins and giggles or do you really believe your misguided crap?

short barrel said:

Never ever will a civilian need more than 2 shots from a shotgun.

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short barrel said:

It seems there are so many people speaking with authority who have no authority to say what they do.

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Well, I think that sums up that post.

I'd sure want a very short weapon, like a handgun, that could not be grabbed before it could be fired

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Yep, because a handgun is SO much more powerful than a shotgun to stop a threat

Autos fail because failure is inherent to the design

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Simply false

I wish I had time to learn how to use a bead sight but I don't.

So the sights are a big consideration for me. I already know how to use the sights on an M16. A shotgun with nothing put a picatiny rail to mount optics is another option.

Never ever will a civilian need more than 2 shots from a shotgun.

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3 guys have never ever broken into a house together?
A home owner has never ever missed a shot with two burglars in the house?

"Never ever" is an awfully big absolute to use when describing fluid and often unpredictable scenarios.

Practice at extremely close range, as suggested, is useless.

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Considering that most encounters occur at close range, you're saying that practicing for the most likely scenario is useless?

The only reason to have a shotgun for defense purposes is to not miss.

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That's the only reason? It has nothing to do with the shotgun's power/payload? And what makes you think that one can't miss with a shotgun, even at close range? At the 5' that you mentioned, the shot pattern on an average gun is less than 2 inches. It's not hard to conceive that one could miss with that when under stress, in the dark, just woke up, and has an unknown attacker very very close threatening the lives of the homeowner and his family.

Who misses at 5 feet?

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Many people. It's not like shooting a stationary target while standing in a booth at the range.

Did you know that all the blasts from shotguns in the movies that throw human beings backward is simply movie crap? A shotgun or any other weapon you can legally buy will not move your opponent backwards. He simply gets shot and falls.

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Relevance?

Pump actions gun will fail if the user is under stress. They don't cycle all by themselves. Short strokes by users, no matter their practice level, occur.

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Short stroking is an example of a shooter failure, not a gun failure.

Autos fail because failure is inherent to the design.

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Which part of an autoloading shotgun was designed to fail? I'd love to be enlightened.

It seems there are so many people speaking with authority who have no authority to say what they do.

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Argue the points, not the people. Ad homonym attacks won't win this one for you.

Misguided crap? That's pretty rough. I have inadvertently offended you with my opinion. I'm sure you know that my opinion is nothing more than that. It's okay if I state it, but it surely does not mean anyone must agree. Let's have a healthy discussion when these things come up, not an argument or introduce sarcasm, like a "handgun is SO much more powerful than a shotgun." We all know that's not true. I am strongly of the opinion that a short double gun will serve better if a shotgun is the weapon of choice, but I don't mean for anyone to run out and get one because someone on the Internet has that opinion.

Everytime I seem to have enough money to spend on a very nice semi-auto shotgun, I seem to go home with a rifle.
I look at the shotgun quiet a bit differently than I did 30 years ago, for the most part I use AR's now where I would have used an 870 back then.
Now a M4, would be a great HD shotgun, but as much as I would like one it would be a whole new learning curve with a different set of purchases required to keep it up and running and knowledge base I currently dont have. I'm old set in my ways and a bit lazy about this idea.
If you have the time and desire to do so, from what I have read the M4 is pretty much the "Standard" for HD semi auto shotguns, go for it.

I wish I had time to learn how to use a bead sight but I don't.

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You pretty much DON'T use a bead sight on a shotgun.

You look at the target. You look where you want the shot to go. You pull the trigger. The shotgun shoots a shot column right where you looked. If you looked at where the target and shot column intersect, the target eats lead. The end.

The bead and the rib are a convenience for you to see how well the shotgun fits when you throw it up to the shoulder, and an aiming device when trying to shoot the shotgun like a rifle (which is probably what you ought not be doing unless you're shooting a slug).

I used to be a rifle guy. Comments like I just made didn't make any sense to me for a long time. Then I spent a couple of days each month at the clay throwers for a couple of years, and I got it.

C0untZer0 said:

I wish I had time to learn how to use a bead sight but I don't.

So the sights are a big consideration for me. I already know how to use the sights on an M16. A shotgun with nothing put a picatiny rail to mount optics is another option.

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It all depends on what you'll be using your shotgun for.

If you shoot a lot of slugs at distances of 25 yards or greater, sights or optics are a big help. Some guys can do all right with a bead only out past 75 yards, but I'm not one of them.

If you try to line up sights on a flying bird or running rabbit, you'll miss every time.

At close, HD distances, a bead, sight, or 0 power optic will all work fine. It's pretty easy at across the room distances to just look over a rear sight, put the front sight on your target, and score a hit.

My opinion is that a lot of people are really looking for affirmation on an idea, gun choice, or whatever, not opinions.

Well, I suppose the tacticians in here can direct their hostility towards me now.

Want to know one of the reasons I sold my 590A1 pump for the SLP?

I found that I would, during a course of fire, forget to pump it! Yes, I admit it. Transitioning between an auto loading pistol to a pump shotgun was problematic. Aim - pull the trigger - BANG - aim at a second target - pull the trigger - CLICK....oops.

I know it could be easily overcome with training and practice, but I am already devoting as much time as I can afford to without letting other things slip. I also resist the idea of being tactical which seems to predominate forum thought. The best solution for me and one with which I am most comfortable, was switching to a shotgun that behaved like my pistol.

For rate of fire, the auto will beat the pump every time.

I could not agree more. And that's why I went with the Benelli M2 - a manual of arms that was consistent with my rifles and handguns and required no significant retraining to switch back and forth.

Point, shoot, reload as needed, and let the gun work itself. No sense in adding tasks to a scenario that is already assured of being stressful.

The notion of auto-loaders being less reliable than any other form of action has been moot for more than two decades now at a minimum, and almost a century in many cases.

Mainsail said:

Well, I suppose the tacticians in here can direct their hostility towards me now.

Want to know one of the reasons I sold my 590A1 pump for the SLP?

I found that I would, during a course of fire, forget to pump it! Yes, I admit it. Transitioning between an auto loading pistol to a pump shotgun was problematic. Aim - pull the trigger - BANG - aim at a second target - pull the trigger - CLICK....oops.

I know it could be easily overcome with training and practice, but I am already devoting as much time as I can afford to without letting other things slip. I also resist the idea of being tactical which seems to predominate forum thought. The best solution for me and one with which I am most comfortable, was switching to a shotgun that behaved like my pistol.

For rate of fire, the auto will beat the pump every time.

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And if I switched to an auto now, I'd probably keep trying in vain to pump the forend.

An auto probably is the best choice for someone new to shotguns but already has experience with an AR-15 or other semi-auto rifle. Unless they also want to get into handloading or trying out unusual types of ammo.

quote:
I wish i had time to learn how to use a bead sight but i don't.
You pretty much don't use a bead sight on a shotgun.

You look at the target. You look where you want the shot to go. You pull the trigger. The shotgun shoots a shot column right where you looked. If you looked at where the target and shot column intersect, the target eats lead. The end.

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bingo

Let's have a healthy discussion when these things come up, not an argument or introduce sarcasm,

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Good idea. My post had no sarcasm (or at least none that was intended). So a good place dot start might be with addressing my counterpoints to your post.

Edit to add:
Not that I'm any kind of authority and that you'd have to answer to me. I just hop sit would help advance the discussion if we could actually see, point by point, where you're coming from. Some explanation of your perspective can help enlighten us to why we have differing opinions.

"You pretty much DON'T use a bead sight on a shotgun.

You look at the target. You look where you want the shot to go. You pull the trigger. The shotgun shoots a shot column right where you looked. If you looked at where the target and shot column intersect, the target eats lead. The end.

The bead and the rib are a convenience for you to see how well the shotgun fits when you throw it up to the shoulder, and an aiming device when trying to shoot the shotgun like a rifle (which is probably what you ought not be doing unless you're shooting a slug).

I used to be a rifle guy. Comments like I just made didn't make any sense to me for a long time. Then I spent a couple of days each month at the clay throwers for a couple of years, and I got it." rbernie

This is a very helpful post for someone like me who has never even owned a shotgun.

Thank you!

Keith, you said it. It took me a while to learn that also. I learned on quail and rabbits, but alas, the yotes have eaten them all up. But the principle applies to clays as well.