Defensive shotgun decision

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

Hello,
I'm looking for some opinions here. I've shot rifles for decades, as well as handguns, both semi-autos and revolvers for the last 20 years or so. But I've never owned or fired a shotgun. Perhaps it was because my father put the F.O.G. in me regarding shotguns at an early age (circular saws as well... don't ask!), and I just don't see as many places to shoot and practice as rifles and handguns.
I'm a safety wonk, a pretty good learner, and willing to put in the time to practice (after a certain age, I'm not sure that 'training' is the right term).
I'm finally considering buying one for (home) defense, range use and, well, it's on the bucket list. From everything I've read, discussed and watched, a pump model is the safe bet. Lower cost, reliable, time tested. But I've gotten enamored with gas and inertia powered models, particularly the FN and Benelli M4. (I also am attracted to the Kel-Tec, likely because I like bull pups, high-tech and am left-handed. But everything I've read says the KT is nowhere near the same reliability level as others I've mentioned). Both the Benelli and FN are very expensive but I'm willing to look past that for something I will keep, enjoy, use and feel that I can rely on. There is something for me about pulling something out of the safe and thinking, 'that's the one I wanted' and keeping and using it for a very long time.
I guess the military has been using the M4 as their default for quite a few years now which is a pretty good endorsement for ruggedness and reliability. I've read of LEO's using the FN in some instances (though I assume that pump actions dominate law enforcement).
So, opinions? I wouldn't say that cost is no object but I don't plan to own more than one and generally subscribe to the the 'buy once...' view of the world. A specific question is whether the difference in reliability between a high quality semi-auto shotgun versus a pump model is significant? Or has their reliability become virtually the same from a practical perspective?
Thx,
B

 

[RPRNY]

Is the "defensive" use you envision against the very low risk of an intruder/home invasion, or are you of the breakdown in law and order ilk?

If the former, a semi-auto is a fine choice, although having heard the "Benelli Click" much more than once in the duck blind and on the sporting clays course, I would advocate for a gas operated s/a over inertia every time. Beretta A400. Shoot clays and defend your home reliably.

If the latter, pump. Suggest an older 870 Wingmaster. CYL 18.5" barrels for buck are readily available and with a Mod choked original barrel you can shoot trap until the Apocalypse.

 

[Field Tester]

Shouldn't a person want the most reliable weapon regardless if they might face a single intruder or a whole horde?

 

[Fred Fuller]

A specific question is whether the difference in reliability between a high quality semi-auto shotgun versus a pump model is significant? Or has their reliability become virtually the same from a practical perspective?

Given good quality ammunition of a proper power level, reliability of pumps and semiautos these days is pretty much equivalent.

Do you know how to drive a manual transmission? If so, IMHO you should learn to shoot a defensive shotgun with a pumpgun. Why? Because the design is so common and pervasive, and you might not always have your own oh-so-carefully chosen semiauto with you . I'm funny that way, I think serious students should have basic familiarity with whatever hardware might come to hand in a pinch, be it a revolver, a bolt action rifle, or whatever.

A good pumpgun costs half or less what a good semiauto will cost. Most of the 'serious' shotguns here were bought used, and cost $200 or less in days gone by (but have had some basic accessories added). If cost is no barrier, then that's no problem. Still, I think it's good discipline to learn to shoot a defensive shotgun with a manually operated repeater.

But then, I'm an oldphart stick-in-the-mud, too .

 

[Sav .250]

First off, any shotgun can be USED as a "defensive" weapon. Just some have more bells and whistles on them

Semi auto...pump... more of a personal choice. Think about it, how many times have you been forced to use any weapon for self defense? How many?

Just buy yourself a moderate priced shotgun, action type ,your choice . As you will find out there are many more fun activities for owning a shotgun.

If and when you ever need a "self" defense weapon ......you have one. Plus, look at how much damage you can do as well. I say that tongue in cheek.

 

[JamieC]

Something to keep in mind, depending on who might have to shoot your defensive shotgun, using buffered or low recoil ammo might not cycle a semi auto. Pump shot guns, (Remington 870, Mossberg), are about as close to completely reliable as you can get, just what you want in a defensive shotgun. The military seems to think semi autos are reliable and they probably tested a couple!

 

[200Apples]

.
Since you're an experienced shooter with both rifle and handgun, you will probably round out your collection with two shotguns, eventually; a good pump and then a good semiauto.

Starting with the pump gun, you can have a lot of fun at the range, punching paper full of big holes (shooting slugs), smaller holes (buckshot) with a short, "home defense" barrel (usually 18.5" cyl. bore choke [no choke]) then with a barrel swap (takes no time at all) you can be busting clays, shooting trap or skeet. There's a newer game called Sporting Clays which is somewhat like golf, but with shotguns.

Go handle some previously-owned shotguns if you have a dealer near you with a good used gun selection. Often times you can find very clean, very-little-used Remington 870 Wingmasters for less than what you'd pay for a new 870 Express and get a nicer gun. I'm biased, but I think everyone should have an 870. They're a very versatile pump-action shotgun.



Both Wingmasters pictured above are wearing 18.5" barrels. The shotgun above has a blued, smoothbore, bead-sight, cyl. bore (no choke) barrel. The shotgun below has a Fred Fuller Special (a Remington smoothbore, MOD-choke, rifle sights, parkerized finish). Either barrel is a suitable home defense barrel, but they will "pattern" 00 buckshot differently (but with very little difference at close ranges).

I know you're going to have a blast! (pun intended)

 

[btg3]

If you're going to be a serious shotgun student, then competency with pump makes it an option.

If you're just going to have a shotgun, then get a gas semi-auto.

 

[mac66]

Might want to consider going to a range that does 3 gun competitions and/or defensive shotgun classes and observe what those guys use. You will likely see everything from race guns to common everyday pumps. At least it will give you an idea of what and how they are being used.

In the end however if you want an FN or Benelli just go buy one. May as well start at the top and skip all the preliminaries.

 

[bubba in ca]

A quality semi properly maintained and kept in the house has the edge for HD. Once broken in the reliability is not an issue. For normal HD you need 2 or 3 shots with no screwups--aim (or point depending on the distance), squeeze trigger.

I have a pump because I am cheap and a dinosaur who grew up with them. I have a mossberg because I shoot left-handed. This sums up the value of a pump: cheap and common, the people`s gun. this sums up the value of a mossberg. You need 3 movements to get off multiple shoots--aim, squeeze trigger, pump, and maybe a 4th to get your sight picture back. If you are very well trained and practice a lot, you won`t short shuck it: all others beware.

If you have the bucks for a Benelli, go for it. Learn the mechanics, break it in with 200 rounds with bird shot, and then practice with buckshot at 0 to 20 feet.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've taken ten multiple day shotgun classes over the last 8 years at a number of different places. For pumps the majority run Remington 870s and minority run Mossberg 500 or 590s. Both of these are fantastic platforms. As for semi autos. I have seen a lot of different ones at classes. The only ones that I have seen that seem to be consistently reliable to the point where I would trust my life to it is the Benelli M4. I'm not saying there aren't other semi-autos that work reliably but it's that the Benelli M4s stand out and lots are using them. I don't own an M4 myself as I settled on the pump for home defense.

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

Is the "defensive" use you envision against the very low risk of an intruder/home invasion, or are you of the breakdown in law and order ilk?

If the former, a semi-auto is a fine choice, although having heard the "Benelli Click" much more than once in the duck blind and on the sporting clays course, I would advocate for a gas operated s/a over inertia every time. Beretta A400. Shoot clays and defend your home reliably.

If the latter, pump. Suggest an older 870 Wingmaster. CYL 18.5" barrels for buck are readily available and with a Mod choked original barrel you can shoot trap until the Apocalypse.

Definitely not the latter. I'm not a believer The defensive probability is regarding home defense, though I acknowledge it's extreme unlikelihood and it's not clear that a shotgun is the best option. I just cited it as the only 'practical' use case.
Separately, I know virtually nothing about trap. Is your recommendation of a pump due to rules? Or reliability? Something else?
Thx,
B

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

The decision to purchase a gun to defend your home, yourself and your loved ones is an important and serious one. Does a woman need a gun for home ...

Was there something missing from this post?

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

I appreciate all of the comments.
It sounds like, by most reasonable measures, the semi-auto (at least the Benelli) is virtually as reliable as a pump. And the comment about short-shucking is something I've been considering for some time. I'd bet that if you added short-shucking to the list of mechanical failures of pumps (which are very low), they might turn out to be less reliable than semi's. That is, the added human error risk might be reliability equalizer. It doesn't matter why the gun didn't go 'bang'. It just didn't.
I don't know that I have to worry much about loaning the gun to someone who might require a lighter load but it does seem worthwhile to consider becoming experienced with a pump on the oft chance that I'll want to or need to use one. So buying a common used one (870 or 500) is worth considering.
I also like the one THR-normal response, 'Buy both!'. I was surprised there was only one!
Finally, I didn't expect there to be a black and white answer to my questions, so I wasn't disappointed not to find one. But I appreciate the added info.
B

By the way, I am completely fluent with manual transmissions. I drive one virtually every day for the last 35 years.

 

[RPRNY]

Definitely not the latter. I'm not a believer The defensive probability is regarding home defense, though I acknowledge it's extreme unlikelihood and it's not clear that a shotgun is the best option. I just cited it as the only 'practical' use case.
Separately, I know virtually nothing about trap. Is your recommendation of a pump due to rules? Or reliability? Something else?
Thx,
B

Trap singles- load one, shoot one- offer no penalty to pump guns. Skeet, Five Stand, Sporting and Trap Doubles are all made just that bit harder with a pump. But a short barrel pump is hard to beat for defense.

 

[Jenrick]

The biggest issue with semi-autos is that your are required to find shells that YOUR gun will run with. The problem with shotguns is that unlike rifle or pistol rounds there are widely varying pressures and recoil amounts for the same round commercially available. Imagine if they produced 9mm in everything from CB cap power all the way to +P+ plus levels and none were really labeled on the shelves of the local gun store. Shotgun shells are only marginally better labeled then this in terms of pressure and recoil, which depending on what semi-auto you went with either one or both could be the variable that lets it be a semi-auto. Even shells that will run in one Benelli, may not in another, or do so only intermittently. Now if you step up from light loads to full power hunting or SD loads, yes almost all semi-autos will run, but you're paying the price in cash and recoil.

Semi's are absolutely faster guns to shoot, but they do tend to have a more complicated manual of arms then pumps. Additionally the reciprocating mass of the bolt can lead to more felt recoil compared to a pump depending on how you shoot the weapon.

With all that said, a semi-auto is a great gun for games, hunting, and SD. The later is really the only area where I think the complication in the manual of arms arises, and then only in certain situations. I personally prefer a pump gun for SD, but a lot of that is due to a whole lot more time running one both as a shooter, and as an instructor with one then a semi-auto.

I can't really offer anymore on the semi-auto selection as they are not my area of expertise. I will say that for SD, you really can't go wrong with the Remington 870 Police Magnum, or the Mossberg 500 family (the 590a1 in specific). I have a personal preference for Mossberg, but either is a quality gun.

-Jenrick

 

[DNS]

I'm cheap so i have an 870 and Pardner Protector.
If i was spending your money i'd look at a Versa Max.
Its gas operated and the recoil is WAY less than anything i own.

 

[g.willikers]

If the shotgun will be only for self defense possibilities, then it's necessary to practice with it enough to be able to depend on it to save your life.
Then any shortcoming, like short stroking a pump, or knowing what ammo works an autoloader, will not be any problem.
So, just pick one and get to it.
OOps, almost forgot:
"The gun is the least of it."

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Let's start out by clarifying something - the FN is a gas operated semi-auto, not inertia operated.

The biggest issue with semi-autos is that your are required to find shells that YOUR gun will run with. The problem with shotguns is that unlike rifle or pistol rounds there are widely varying pressures and recoil amounts for the same round commercially available.

May have been true in the past, but modern semi-autos will run virtually anything you put in them with the exclusion of extremely light, 7/8-ounce trap loads - which you wouldn't be using for defensive purposes. I have an FN SLP - and it runs whatever I've put into it from 1-ounce trap loads through Brenneke 3-inch Black Magic slugs.

Imagine if they produced 9mm in everything from CB cap power all the way to +P+ plus levels and none were really labeled on the shelves of the local gun store.

You're making things up in an attempt to make some type of point - and missing badly.

Shotgun shells are only marginally better labeled then this in terms of pressure and recoil, which depending on what semi-auto you went with either one or both could be the variable that lets it be a semi-auto. Even shells that will run in one Benelli, may not in another, or do so only intermittently. Now if you step up from light loads to full power hunting or SD loads, yes almost all semi-autos will run, but you're paying the price in cash and recoil.

Not true in so many ways...won't even attempt to address it other than to say - quit using cheap ammunition. As long as you use quality products - a semi-auto will work.

Semi's are absolutely faster guns to shoot, but they do tend to have a more complicated manual of arms then pumps.

You mean "than pumps"? How? On a semi-auto, you pull the bolt back one time to charge the gun - after that it's "semi-automatic."

Additionally the reciprocating mass of the bolt can lead to more felt recoil compared to a pump depending on how you shoot the weapon.

Gas operated semi-autos have far less recoil than a pump - that's one of the features of a gas operated semi-auto. You can get back on target much faster with a gas operated semi-auto than you can with a pump specifically because of the reduced recoil.

With all that said, a semi-auto is a great gun for games, hunting, and SD. The later is really the only area where I think the complication in the manual of arms arises, and then only in certain situations. I personally prefer a pump gun for SD, but a lot of that is due to a whole lot more time running one both as a shooter, and as an instructor with one then a semi-auto.

You don't run one so no one else should - and, you claim you're an instructor. Okay...my wife can run a semi-auto and finds it easier to use than my pump. She prefers to use the semi-auto because "It's so much easier to use." But, if you want to pretend this is really difficult....

I can't really offer anymore on the semi-auto selection as they are not my area of expertise.

Boy, is that obvious.

I will say that for SD, you really can't go wrong with the Remington 870 Police Magnum, or the Mossberg 500 family (the 590a1 in specific). I have a personal preference for Mossberg, but either is a quality gun.

And I'd say - you want a semi-auto buy one - just make sure it's a quality gun.

 

[plumberroy]

I can only give my opinion. If I have to bet my life on a gun and could only have one gun it will be a shotgun,and it will be a pump gun. If I have to use bone stock off the shelf gun it will be a mossberg if I can have some work done on it I'll take an 870. My go to shotgun was built by a member here Remington 870 that J.D. McGuire of AI&P tactical built for me 18.5 modified choke barrel lefty safety and the rest of his upgrades
Roy

 

[Virginian]

I have 5 semi autos , one pump, and SxSs. None have a barrel shorter than 25" and that's a 28 gauge. I would have no problem using any of the three 12 gauges or two 20s for defense, with the choice probably falling to which is most conveniently to the front of the safe, where I will go to get it, handgun in hand.

 

[Mainsail]

I have the 18" barrel FNH SLP (not the MK1) and am confident it can defend the home from almost anything that might want to come in uninvited. They shoot very fast if you were to ever need a suppressive cloud of lead pellets.

 

[Tony617]

I bought a FNH 18" SLP several years ago. The SLP is my go to shotgun and have loaded with XM127 9 pellet 00 buckshot. I bought a tri-rail extension for my SLP so have a TLR-1s light on it

I also have a Mossberg 590A1 with a light and buttstock side saddle. I take both shotguns to the range and practice with both the pump and semi-auto.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Funny you mention short shucking. The only times I've had it happen have been in classes when the pressure has been amped up. It's maybe happened five times over many classes. Having said that, I fire thousands of rounds per year through my pump in trap league and never have short stroking. So yes, it is on the back of mind as well. Not enough for me to change the home defense pump. All weapons have their pros and cons. I suppose if I were younger and didn't have my home defense firearms already I'd give the Benelli serious consideration.

 

[Jason_W]

I prefer pumps for a few reasons.

1. less expensive
2. I've been hunting almost exclusively with pump action shotguns since I was 11 and a Remington 870 now feels like an extension of my arms
3. They're less picky about ammunition (a major bonus if you reload with a cheap Lee Load All press).