Why no affordable competitors to the Hi-Point and Kel-Tec pistol caliber carbines?

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As I think I said before in an old thread, personally, I'd love to see a light, cheap, simple carbine about the size of an M1 Carbine but with a 16" barrel and chambered in popular pistol calibers and maybe .30 carbine and 5.7 x 28mm. With modern manufacturing, the shorter barrel and a light plastic stock, maybe even a plastic receiver with rails like a modern polymer pistol, it ought to possible to drop the weight down from the original carbine's 5.2 lb (2.4 kg) empty/5.8 lb (2.6 kg) loaded w/sling to under 5 lb (2.3 kg) loaded. Now that would be handy and more than enough for home defense, plinking, truck gun use, etc.
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^This. Make a plastic Marlin camp carbine for $500 or under, and I'll take it.
 
As has been noted repeatedly, the market is already filled.

Most folks looking to fill this Niche are going to just buy an AR carbine, be it a .223 or a 9mm.
those looking for a Non-AR for this role have several fairly mainline options, the High-Point, berretta carbines, keltec sub2K, etc. Oh and you don't tend to see the Kel-Tec in stores because most don't hang around long enough. they're either special ordered to begin with or sold fairly quick after arrival. they ARE around and have been for years, so lumping them under the "it's kel-tec so it's Vapor ware" is BS.

as for the Marlin camp carbine and Ruger PC-series they were both kind of killed by the AR but for different reasons. the Camp carbine died because it's tooling wore out just as ARs were starting to "bloom" ie companies other than Colt were making noticeable in-roads and public awareness of their utility was rising.
the Ruger PC series on the other hand in addition to being an overweight for size pure blowback design, was meant for the LE market. the PC9 and PC40 were meant to be compliments to Ruger's respective 9mm and .40 P-series pistols with a major selling point to LE agencies that the pistol and carbine could use the same magazines. problem was that when the call for Patrol Rifles/Carbines came, it was after N. Hollywood and the agencies that were looking were looking for .223 larger. so in reality the ruger PCs were killed by better marketing/sales of LEO handguns by Glock and others on one hand and by being under-powered for the perceived need on the other.

Oh and now that Kahr/AutoOrd and James River Armory (resurrecting Rockola) are making New production gas driven M-1 Carbine repros, that's another segment of the pistol cal carbine market taken
 
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Companies have come out with pistol calibers carbines over the years but they never seem to sell all that well. The cost seems to be prohibitive. As someone mentioned that if you start looking at the cost you may as well buy a regular rifle caliber. The Hi-Point seems to be the exception as a niche weapon. The Keltec popularity seems to be the use of Glock or other existing pistol mags.

Probably the most underrated option is the Mech Tech Carbine Conversion Unit (CCU) which basically replaces an existing pistol slide with an upper unit. You can get them for either the 1911 type pistol or the Glock in various calibers. Cheaper than any other PCC and you don't need any paperwork because it uses your existing pistol. They are accurate and reliable.
 
Having banned open bolt guns, there isn't much less complexity between a locked breech gun and a blowback (let alone a recoil operated, which is usually more than both). The real shock is that these cheap Hi Point carbines probably don't cost much less to make than an equally 'well crafted' AR15 --but that powerful cartridge sure makes it easier to ask for more money from customers ;)

TCB
 
So then why do Hi Point carbines sell so well? Is it solely based on its low price? The difference between $250-$300 and $450+ is astronomical to some folks, which would drive them to the lower cost Hi Point rather than something like the Beretta. At the same time, the higher priced PCC's don't seem to be all that popular either, such as the Kriss Vector at over $1500.

These days, you can build an inexpensive AR-15 for a bit over $500, less if you use a polymer lower. So there is the low end AR market that fits snug in with the mid priced PCC market. 5.56 can be had for fairly cheap (ZQI, 30 rounds for $10), versus 9mm (50 rounds for $15-$20). So ammo cost is really neither here nor there when comparing 9mm to 5.56. The cost actually favors 5.56 when put up against .40 and .45.

Still, those darn Hi Point carbines still sell very well, despite all.
 
USAF_Vet said:
So then why do Hi Point carbines sell so well? Is it solely based on its low price? The difference between $250-$300 and $450+ is astronomical to some folks, which would drive them to the lower cost Hi Point rather than something like the Beretta. At the same time, the higher priced PCC's don't seem to be all that popular either, such as the Kriss Vector at over $1500.

These days, you can build an inexpensive AR-15 for a bit over $500, less if you use a polymer lower. So there is the low end AR market that fits snug in with the mid priced PCC market. 5.56 can be had for fairly cheap (ZQI, 30 rounds for $10), versus 9mm (50 rounds for $15-$20). So ammo cost is really neither here nor there when comparing 9mm to 5.56. The cost actually favors 5.56 when put up against .40 and .45.

Still, those darn Hi Point carbines still sell very well, despite all.
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I think there are enough people who like the idea of having a long gun chambered in the same round as their handgun that there will always be at least a niche market for the PCC.

If you handload, and have no need to shoot anything past 100ish yards, the ammo commonality makes a lot of sense. One set of dies, one set of powders, etc. and handgun rounds load a lot faster and easier than rifle rounds (many thanks to the inventor of the carbide sizing die).

Additionally, the muzzle blast and pressure spike produced by the 5.56 is much greater than that of most pistol rounds. That's an advantage when teaching new shooters who might be a little intimidated by muzzle blast (which can be uncomfortable even with appropriate hearing protection in place) as well as in the unlikely event you have to shoot indoors.

Revolver round carbines are a whole other animal in that with the right load, a revolver round can yield near-rifle performance.
 
I am having trouble remembering them all but here goes.

Around 1970 or so if you wanted a PCC Commando Arms was your friend they made faux Thompson SMGs in semi auto not there close to Thompsons but naked eye at 200 yards faux Thompson. They went through several marks and then petered out.

There was also the Eagle or Apache that looked even less like a Thompson as it had a round receiver.

There was the J&R or Linda Carbine that was Uzi-ish and to be honest I wanted at the time.

None of these were big sales items.

Come the mid 1980's and the dam broke.

Uzi semi auto rifles, Sterling "Patchet" semi auto rifles, and a newer "eagle" this time looking like a bergman SMG with tube receiver, cooling holes in the front shroud and a side mounted magazine. Iver & Johnson jumped on the band wagon with a 9x19mm version of the M-1 carbine that took modified FNHP mags. Let's not forget the semi only versions of the MAC-10 and MAC-11. Are there any HK 94s out there still that did not get either turned into MP5s or papered for short barrels? They were expensive and oddly with the 16.1 inch barrels I never found one that accurate....though oddly with the barrels lopped off for SMG-ing they seemed to regain the accuracy I loved the MP5 for in Europe.

Then came Marlin with its Camp Carbine and no one knew about the disintergrating buffers back then. The 9x19mm used S&W magazines for the shorty versions of the S&W 59 series for a flus fit but the long mags worked well.

I once ran into a family of TEOTWAWKI folks on a range I was being range master of and Mom and Dad each had the short griped more concel able models of the S&W 59 series big Bro and Sis had the Marlin Camps with the same mags and baby brother ( about 12) had a Ruger 10/22 which was of course shaped like the Marlins in stock design and he had the short Ramline hi caps of course. Out in the car they had a Remington 700 and an 870 as well.

The Marlin Camp .45 took 1911 mags, but could be tempermental as to brand and follower design.

Ruger could not be left out so around 1990 they came out with a 9x19 and a .40 that used their own service pistol magazines of the time ....unfortunately also at that time half the gun shops in the US seemed to be assembling AR-15s from parts or kits at roughly the same price as the Rugers and Law Enforcement Organizations were getting M-16A-1 rifles from the US government cheaper than Mom and Pop could build an AR15.

Take a look at how many of those pre 1990 guns are still in production.......

That may be your answer to why there are not a lot of PCC options.

I would not mind having a Kel Tec folder. Most I have seen have been set up for Glock mags. I think they were also set up for Beretta and S&W mads at one point and they were going to offer conversion set ups which I have never seen. I thought they missed the boat by not offering CZ75 & Clone magazines.

Hi point appears to be trying to win the record for Ugliest guns out there. There originals were seen by many as ugly though I thought them "utilitarian" the "improved" guns are oog-lee-er by far. Why the new .45 could not have been made to tak e unmodified 1911 mags is anyone's guess. The original 9x19s have some appeal to me especially in the after market stock that made it look more Beretta-ish. I fail to understand why HiPoint or some after market outfit has not come up with a stock that allows the use of a hicap double stack single feed magazine like the FNHP or CZ75.

There are of course the Beretta and I believe a current HK but the prices are getting to close to ARs or Mini-14s for those to really catch on with the great unwashed masses.

I am sure I left out a few.....or a lot.... but I think you get the idea. They are a neat idea that does not make its nut back on tooling and marketing for the most part.

Of course anyone wanting to give a way a Pistol Caliber Carbine for free, or even for shipping and transfer, feel free to drop me a PM.........

-kBob
 
I've been keeping an eye on the used Camp Carbines. Every so often one comes up on Gun Broker, but I've never seen one locally. I saw one KelTec and it sold in a couple of days, I think it was a .40.

The problem with the magazines is there are so many. That's a huge benefit of 223 AR style rifles, they all use the same magazine. For 9mm pistols there are at least a hundred different magazines variants. If you wanted to make a 9mm carbine no matter what you'd have some folks whose pistol magazines are not covered.
 
I have AR's in 55.6 and 25-45 sharps.
I have a Hi-point in 45.
I have a Beretta Storm in 45.

I want an AR in 45 but the cost is high, even just an upper, DI is preferred.

I'd like a nice lever action in 357, easy to shoot and matches my revolver. Marlin is the best IMHO but hard to find at a good price.

I have lever action and semi auto in 44 Mag., they cost more to shoot and have excessive blast when plinking, awesome for hunting and I think enough for SD;) Why did Ruger make different mags for the DeerSlayer, 96/44 and 77/44??


I want a synthetic Marlin camp carbine with 1911 mags that is easy to mount a red dot on, $450 or so.

I really think for realistic self defense a PCC in 9-45 covers it well and easy to reload for us pistol shooters.

Tony
 
Nothing wrong with Kel-Tec.

The shop started out as a CNC machine shop that built plastic injection molds, before
the migration to "guns only".

They simply can not keep up with the demand and for whatever reason, don't want
to expand.

I can see not wanting to sub-contract. You lose control of your quality when you do that.

I'm in the business, been there, done that.

I have never owned one of the carbines.
My friend had one for a while and I shot it a lot.

No problems. If I had use for the type, I would not hesitate
to buy the Kel-Tec.
 
How about a pump action carbine in revolver rounds? It would be a little quicker than a lever and would offer an appreciable gain over the same rounds chambered in a handgun.

Why didn't the IMI Timberwolf make it?
 
My 9mm AR gets more use than my .223 AR. I was a high-cost build at the time, since it had to be put together from several vendors. At a 100 yard range, shooting paper, it will do pretty much everything the .223 will. Not quite as accurate, but will keep inside of 2" at 100yds if I do my part (iron sights). Hits are easier to see as well.

The big difference is reloading. I can reload 600 rounds of 9mm in less time than 100 .223. It also costs less to load 9mm than almost anything else. I hate trimming, too.

Of course, PSA had to come out with a kit after I did my build. $550 gets you in the game, some assembly required.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18793/s/psa-16-9mm-1-10-melonite-rifle-kit-no-magazine/category/4442/

They have also hinted that they are working on a .45 kit as well. I will definitely buy it if they do.
 
It should be pointed out that one can legally make a pistol into a rifle by adding a 16" bbl and a stock. That's easier to do with fixed barrel pistols like the MAC10/M11 types, UZIs, TEC 9s than tilt barrel designs. Though I've seen carbine kits for Glocks, and 1911s which simply replace the barrel and add a stock. I mentioned the MECH TECH CCU before as well.
 
I have to ask...... and this plays into this discussion

I get the fun side of PCC...... I do.

I enjoy shooting them as much as the next guy..... but

I have never found a true use for them, that wasn't covered better by another weapon.

Hunting? - Much better solutions

Self defense? - Much better solutions

The longer PCC barrels dont increase the power much at all


Again... love to shoot them, but I cant find a true role
 
Dean1818 said:
I have to ask...... and this plays into this discussion

I get the fun side of PCC...... I do.

I enjoy shooting them as much as the next guy..... but

I have never found a true use for them, that wasn't covered better by another weapon.

Hunting? - Much better solutions

Self defense? - Much better solutions

The longer PCC barrels dont increase the power much at all


Again... love to shoot them, but I cant find a true role
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If you handload, it's way cheaper and faster to handload pistol rounds than it is rifle rounds.

The muzzle blast from a PCC is appreciably less than a 5.56 rifle round. If I was in a situation where I had to touch off a round indoors without hearing protection, I'd much rather that be a pistol round from a rifle barrel.

And some pistol rounds do gain a lot of power from a longer barrel. Mostly the revolver rounds, but it looks like the 10mm auto would gain a lot if there was a 10mm carbine available.
 
What realistic SD scenario can't be handled by a pistol round with carbine acuracy? Even with a pathedic 8 rounds, my storm 45acp is my go SD weapon.
 
USAFVet,

Re: late model HiPoints like that .40 converted to 10mm.....

A man walks out on the street wearing a gun like that, he ain't afraid of nothing.

Its gotta name, I call her......ugly.

That Brown Coat enough for you?

-kBob
 
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