Why no affordable competitors to the Hi-Point and Kel-Tec pistol caliber carbines?
- Thread starter cluttonfred
- Start date
- Status
Captains1911
Member
A picture of the setup you are referring to would be sweet.
The bag measures 16" x 12".
With folded Sub 2000 and 3 - 33rd 9mm Glock mags, and with room to spare:
Same bag with just a standard AR-15 lower:
Last edited:
That seems to be one of the (niche) examples where something like the Sub2k is perfect.
There are certainly ways a rifle cartridge firearm could be made to work, but it would be more involved than what you have posted.
The ATF letter isn't law or official/legal definition.
We all know what the Sig Brace is and how it is used in probably >99% of cases.
There are certainly ways a rifle cartridge firearm could be made to work, but it would be more involved than what you have posted.
The ATF letter isn't law or official/legal definition.
We all know what the Sig Brace is and how it is used in probably >99% of cases.
In the interest of not taking this thread down that particular off topic road, I'll leave it at this.
Thermactor
member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 992
What kind of Hi-Point carbine will fit in a laptop bag?
OP
OP
cluttonfred
Member
I am actually surprised more companies don't offer the Kel-Tec SU-16 kind of folding stock, which would be perfect for a little PCC. And just in case anyone thinks Kel-Tec invented it, here the MAS-36 CR39 French paratrooper carbine from 1939. Neat, though the stock is aluminum which would be awfully cold against your cheek. Missing from this pic is the sling which is attached to a reel in the stock so it winds in and out when you fold and unfold the stock.
Last edited:
OP
OP
cluttonfred
Member
Nope, no photoshop, oddly that's how they really looked and the were used quite a bit, not just by the paratroopers that the were intended for but by other troops including the Foreign Legion during the war in Algeria.
These are a nice idea. However the ones I handled did not impress me with the amount of cheap plastics used in them. I watched the magazine release buttons bending when depressed against just spring pressure as just one example.That Citadel 9mm carbine uses easy to find Beretta 92 mags. It looks awesome. Why would someone want to bugger that up with a red dot? I hope it doesn't die a quick death.
OP
OP
cluttonfred
Member
Another random thought...how about a slick, short throw bolt action, pistol caliber carbine? Synthetic stock, optional folding like the MAS36, 16" barrel, good protected peep sights like Tech Sights plus a scope rail, pistol magazines, say Glock G26/27/30 10-rounders in 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP? Keep everything light and handy, say a loaded weight under 5 lbs? Maybe a simplified Lee-Enfield action, cock on closing, for rapid fire? I think that would be great fun on the range and could do double duty as a truck gun or even for home defense.
Johnny_B_Goode
member
Kel Tec pistol carbines are not selling well at all. The FFL where I picked up my Hi Point carbine tried to sell a Kel Tec carbine to me for $375. I wouldn't have any part of of Kel Tec Carbine.
Hi Point has got a stranglehold on the PCC market. They sell a reliable and durable product at a great price. People try to bad mouth Hi Point but every time they open their mouth they are drowned out by the sound of a Hi Point that never misses a beat.
There are over 60 police departments that use the Hi Point and recommend it. I am sure there are plenty of other police departments that have a few Hi Points hanging around.
Hi Point has got a stranglehold on the PCC market. They sell a reliable and durable product at a great price. People try to bad mouth Hi Point but every time they open their mouth they are drowned out by the sound of a Hi Point that never misses a beat.
There are over 60 police departments that use the Hi Point and recommend it. I am sure there are plenty of other police departments that have a few Hi Points hanging around.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
That's what I was getting at in post 104 and previous sig brace posts. I strongly believe people who want to use a device that needs an ATF letter should use the device freely but watch what they say. Recommending a sig brace in lieu of a carbine rifle is a fairly obvious recommendation to skirt the intent and approved legal use of the device.
You should probably check out today's update.
I don't know, I think I'd rather know precisely where the feds stand on this than go out and "walk the line" on federal felonies, hoping I don't end up as a test case or fall guy.
Quickdraw McGraw
Member
where are u at? i would love to find one for $375. $500 abduction up in central pa!
kBob
Member
I think it was Century a couple of years back that offered a Lee-Enfield with sporter stock and .45ACP fed from 1911 magazines. Who ever made them a friend bought one to build into a DeLiese Suppressed rifle at the time, but I have heard little about his since.....he is a liscenced manufacturer of such before anyone leaps on that.
After WW1 there was a modified 1903 that used .45 ACP from an internal magazine tested by the US Army.
I looked at a Destroyer a couple of times and liked the idea, but the guns I looked at were not in the best shape.
It occurred to me at that time that a Mauser 93 might be a good starting place as at the time they were cheap and ones with shot out barrels even cheaper. I doubt one would need to do any work on the bolt face to accept .45 ACP.
If one wanted to go hog wild I recall an article were a gun writer wanted a low recoil rifle "for his son" and shortened a Mauser 98 action to by cutting shortening and rewelding the receiver "rails" so there was no excess when used with 7.9 Kurz making the rifle have a very short bolt throw. Made me wonder if a 93 might be so shortened for .45ACP and an internal 5 shot mag worked up that could be fed from stripper clips using the original guide. The very short action would look a lot like a Destroyer, yet maintain a sleek look without a pistol mag sticking out.
A buddy years ago wanted to do such with the AutoMag cartridges, either the .44 or .357, but those are hardly common pistol cartridges and few of us have a companion pistol.
-kBob
After WW1 there was a modified 1903 that used .45 ACP from an internal magazine tested by the US Army.
I looked at a Destroyer a couple of times and liked the idea, but the guns I looked at were not in the best shape.
It occurred to me at that time that a Mauser 93 might be a good starting place as at the time they were cheap and ones with shot out barrels even cheaper. I doubt one would need to do any work on the bolt face to accept .45 ACP.
If one wanted to go hog wild I recall an article were a gun writer wanted a low recoil rifle "for his son" and shortened a Mauser 98 action to by cutting shortening and rewelding the receiver "rails" so there was no excess when used with 7.9 Kurz making the rifle have a very short bolt throw. Made me wonder if a 93 might be so shortened for .45ACP and an internal 5 shot mag worked up that could be fed from stripper clips using the original guide. The very short action would look a lot like a Destroyer, yet maintain a sleek look without a pistol mag sticking out.
A buddy years ago wanted to do such with the AutoMag cartridges, either the .44 or .357, but those are hardly common pistol cartridges and few of us have a companion pistol.
-kBob
kBob
Member
Owlnmole,
Do you own a CR39? I always wondered how they shot. They seemed neat to me. Back between the times you could find and MAS36 (pre-68 and post '86) on the market easily Sarco had the stocks. Of course one would still have to do the other shortening on the front end. for a bit they even had the CR39 shortened bayonet. I have to wonder how many CR39s got "made" from those in the US.
The pictures of those Strangers is interesting as the carbines appear to be M1A1 folders as well and that leader in the back ground has an MAT49 SMG.....three calibers so far.....I wonder if they carried 7.65 Fr 1935 pistols and depended upon 7.92 MG 34s as well.
"Hey, we need ammo up here! No not that ammo! Not that ammo either!"
-kBob
Do you own a CR39? I always wondered how they shot. They seemed neat to me. Back between the times you could find and MAS36 (pre-68 and post '86) on the market easily Sarco had the stocks. Of course one would still have to do the other shortening on the front end. for a bit they even had the CR39 shortened bayonet. I have to wonder how many CR39s got "made" from those in the US.
The pictures of those Strangers is interesting as the carbines appear to be M1A1 folders as well and that leader in the back ground has an MAT49 SMG.....three calibers so far.....I wonder if they carried 7.65 Fr 1935 pistols and depended upon 7.92 MG 34s as well.
"Hey, we need ammo up here! No not that ammo! Not that ammo either!"
-kBob
Warp said:
Hmm, a few posts back it sure seems like you were stating that one could make a carbine that fit in a laptop bag using a sig brace. That isn't the first time I've seen someone recommend using a Sig brace to avoid a $200 stamp. Not worth the risk to me, and As I stated before the revised letter came out, the ATF is notorious for flip-flopping on these issues.
That would be these:
I would of course prefer the tax stamp route due to the lack of (at the time) ambiguity since even the letter was not law or official/legal anything really, except perhaps a solid leg to stand on for an affirmative defense. Which is why I went the tax stamp route and have never owned or shot a sig brace. Because we all knew it was a workaround used to circumvent the SBR law.
I believe the BATFE was going to come to the conclusion/action they were going one way or the other, and somebody inquiring might simply speed up the process, thus saving money as fewer people have time to buy a Sig Brace and then suddenly have no practical use for it any more.
Johnny_B_Goode
member
It took a lot of work for Jerry Miculek to find a use for an AR pistol. I have to give him credit, he did find a way to make an exciting video with an an AR pistol. He looks like grandpa robocop with those things strapped on him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7G-sOC3-sQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7G-sOC3-sQ
I think the future is with the smg style rifles that are starting to pop up in the civilian market. Just this year you have the uzi pro, cz evo, and the sig mp. I don't know how much of that was being fueled by the sig brace, but I think that PCCs or PDWs as they are called now they make more sense as an in these configurations because they have a smaller form factor than even ARs and AKs and work better as sbrs (with less blast and recoil). Even with the sig brace losing its reign, people getting into the suppressor and sbr game will likely find these desirable due to their better ergos than the old pccs (either the traditional ruger/sw style or the old school mac 10s and 11s). The pistol round can be more easily suppressed and easier to get reliability out of a short gun than any of the rifle rounds.
If they do get traction, I hope Fn and HK come out with versions of their PDW's in the more common pistol calibers.
If they do get traction, I hope Fn and HK come out with versions of their PDW's in the more common pistol calibers.
- Status
