1858 Conversion Cylinder

44 Colt??? Are you sure you don't mean 45 Colt?

I have no idea. I see that Howell Old West Conversions makes a conversion cylinder for 44 Colt, but you will also note that barrels need to be lined to.429.

It is a happy coincidence that the rifling groove diameter of most 44 caliber percussion revolvers today is right around .451 or so. That makes them perfect for a conversion cylinder chambered for 45 Colt. That is what I have. The rifling groove diameter of my old EuroArms Remmie is actually right around .449, yes I have slugged it, and even that slightly tight bore works fine with a .452 diameter bullet in 45 Colt.

I have no experience with 44 Colt, although I do have a couple of antique 44 Colt cartridges in my collection. The original 44 Colt cartridge used a heeled bullet the same diameter as the 44 caliber balls that were loaded in the C&B revolvers of the mid 19th Century. I forget right now off the top of my head what diameter they were. The 44 Colt cartridge was developed as a round for the original 44 Caliber C&B revolvers of the day when they were converted to cartridges. Most modern shooters who load 44 Colt today use a .429 bullet coupled with a sleeved barrel of .429.

But I have no personal experience loading or shooting 44 Colt.

Plinkin' Logs said:

I had 2 Pietta 1858s and for some reason, only one worked with the conversion cylinder, the other one did a dangerous back-pedal just before the hammer came down. So it seems the Pietta's have as much variation in exact dimensions as some of the original 1858s.

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I have the exact same problem with Kirst Cylinder in my Pietta 5.5" barreled Remy, let the hammer down from full cock and the cylinder counter rotates. In the Pietta target model the Kirst works flawlessly mechanically. But I cannot use black powder, the cylinder/barrel gap is so tight that even one shot with BP is a guaranteed lock up jam. I use Trail Boss and a cast 180 grain SWC boolit with good accuracy and no problems.

A counter rotating cylinder means an ill fitting bolt. The bolt needs to be fitted to the cylinder. I read so many times about drop in parts. I dont know of any "drop in" parts. A new part may function without fitting but that does not mean it's right. It may be on the verge of NOT working after a few cycles of the action. Not to mention setting up wear patterns that will wear out other parts. Cylinders are no different. They are close and engineered to function but they may not in a gun that has tollerences that stack up one way or the other.
Therefore, it may not be anybody's fault that a cylinder will work in one and not another. A "tuned " SA s parts will more than likely not work in any other SA other than the one it has been fitted in. This is why my conversions are permanent and not treated as a "convertable". (Heck, I cant shoot bp where I live anyway!)
Palehorseman, I set all my barrel /cylinder gaps at .002-.0025 for open top revolvers. I've had folks shoot 100+ rounds with no binding from bp fouling. The tight gap wont allow as much residue (the stuff that binds cyls on pins/arbors) to escape so it goes out the barrel . . . like its supposed to. Give it a try.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

The Remington pattern isn't as tolerant of BP fouling as Colts are.

Hey goon,
Yeah, I know but thought if it was truly a "closer than norm" gap, it might let a few more get through before probs start. I like the Remies a lot, wish they had thought of a bushing.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Ooops, posted a duplicate. Sorry.

Yeah, I love the Remington design too. I had a Uberti .44 that would only do about two cylinders before I had to pull the pin and wipe it down. I just made it routine to break the pin loose and add a drop of olive oil after cylinder number one, then pull it and wipe down after the next six shots. I figured it was just part of appreciating history. I'd like to have another (with a .45 conversion cylinder), as well as a 1860 Colt and a 1851 with a square triggerguard.

I check in here every once in awhile to see what you guys are up to - usually the BP guys seem to have the most fun and not take themselves too seriously, so who wouldn't want to check in here?

Have to agree, the Remington pattern is less tolerant of Black Powder than the Colt designs. Neither had a bushing on the front face of the cylinder to deflect fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the center pin.

The Colt is more tolerant because the arbor is larger in diameter and it has a helical clearance groove cut around the arbor.



You will notice I cut some grooves onto the center pin of this Remmie to hold extra bore butter. It helps a bit, but not much. Since I must remove the conversion cylinder to reload it every time anyway, I always take the opportunity to wipe down the cylinder face with a damp cloth.

The two bullets pictured are the Big Lube bullets I use with my conversion cylinder. Notice the huge lube grooves. The top one is the PRS 250 grain bullet, the bottom one is the one I designed, the J/P 45-200, 200 grain bullet.

DJ, does anyone make/sell your J/P 45-200 bullets so that I could try some before I buy a mold?

Nice looking bullets DJ!
I'm working on an easy bushing for Remies so they can shoot for a time ( 100+ ?) without binding. The close tol. gap that I use for Colt types(open tops) seems to work quite well. Several reports of 100+ shots with absolutely no binding.

Goon, gotta agree with ya on the bp crowd!! (We are a fine buncha folks!!!)

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Ha! Hey dickydalton!!

I wonder if some lengthwise or helical grooves on the Remington cylinder pin would help. Of course, there's not as much steel there to work with as there is with the Colt design.

DJ, does anyone make/sell your J/P 45-200 bullets so that I could try some before I buy a mold?

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Click on the Big Lubes button.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/index.html

Thank You DJ.

Been a lurker for awhile, but a first-time poster.

I have a couple Pietta Remington NMA, several spare cap-n-ball cylinders, and a Kirst Konverter "Pale Rider" conversion cylinder (akin to a two-piece 5-shot Howell cylinder). I'm considering purchasing a Kirst Konverter with loading gate, and getting the frame cut and the ejector added to make a full conversion.

However, I'd like to be able to switch back to a cap-n-ball cylinder, and back again, relatively quickly. The Kirst website says "The loading gate/ejector version can also be switched back to Cap & Ball in a few moments". However, despite some efforts to reach out to Kirst and others, I haven't been able to get specifics as to what exactly is involved with that switch. In particular, I don't know if the loading gate plate is screwed to the frame, and must be removed to switch to a cap-n-ball cylinder, or whether such plate will attach to the rest of the cylinder while in use (similar to the Pale Rider) and thus be able to be easily removed for the switch. In addition, the Kirst ejector appears to be part of the cylinder pin, and I don't know if the original pin needs to be returned for a cylinder switch.

Any guidance that can be provided would be greatly appreciated. I just want to get a better idea as to how easy such a switch would be. Thanks.

1858 Remington New Police Conversion

I have a Remington New Police made in early 1870's as a .38 RF. The backplate comes off the cylinder. I would like to have a backplate designed for BP so I can possibly fire cowboy loads or at least the caps. The original cartridge conversion is no longer a firing possibility since the ammunition is now obsolete. I have some of the original ammo for display purposes. The revolver is nickel plate. Is it possible to buy just the backplate for BP or will I have to have a whole new cylinder made? The gun is in excellent condition so I will be careful with anything I do.

A little confused as there was no 1858 Remington New Police, there was the lage frame commonly named 1858 and a medium frame Remington New Police. If the screw heads are on the the right side of the frame, it is a Remington New Police, if on the left an 1858. There are several ways of making your own rimfire ammunition, one is outlined here:http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/OLD RIMFIRES/SHOOT THOSE OLD RIMFIRES AGAIN.htm

Not cheap, but much cheaper than having anything made for the gun.

Remington New Police RF

Thanks GG for the good info. I am new to collecting as most of my guns are shooters first and more modern. I do less actual shooting now so collecting is becoming more attractive. The screws indeed are on the right with rounded ends and show a remarkable amount of blue fire still left from the case hardening. Are Taylor and/or Kirst the best sources for spare cylinder questions?

All of Taylor and/or Kirst parts are made for the 1858 large frame revolver. The cylinders are larger so it is highly unlikely that anything would fit your gun. There has never been a modern replica of your gun made. Your best bet if the gun is in condition to be fired and you wish to do so is to make your own .38 RF ammo. Another option would be to have a cover plate made with firing pins for your cylinder and use .38 short colt cf ammo loaded with black powder. It would still be a fairly expensive undertaking for the guns value.

I bought a Howell .45ACP conversion for my 5.5" Pietta '58. I couldn't be happier. I already cast for .45ACP and there's no chance of getting a warm .45 Colt load for my Ruger Blackhawk into the cylinder. The .45ACP is not found that commonly loaded with a cast bullet, but I cast for and handload mine for my Ruger KP90DC and the rounds are standard pressure and plenty safe for the Pietta frame.

The gun shoots to the very SAME POA as my cap and ball loads, 30 grains of pyrodex P and cornmeal filler topped with a RB. The .45ACP loads are also just as accurate. The bullet is a 200 grain Lee tumble lubed SWC.

This revolver shoots so well, I've lost much of my desire for an 1873 clone. BTW, from 25 yards, that bowling pin in the background ain't got a chance.

Gaucho Gringo said:

All of Taylor and/or Kirst parts are made for the 1858 large frame revolver. The cylinders are larger so it is highly unlikely that anything would fit your gun. There has never been a modern replica of your gun made. Your best bet if the gun is in condition to be fired and you wish to do so is to make your own .38 RF ammo. Another option would be to have a cover plate made with firing pins for your cylinder and use .38 short colt cf ammo loaded with black powder. It would still be a fairly expensive undertaking for the guns value.

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Thanks again GG. I guess I will be on the lookout for medium frame pistols of that era (as well as the New Police). Might find one with a BP cylinder that would fit (timing,lock-up?). Not sure I would want to fire the gun anyway even though all the indicators would support firing it. Displaying with both types of cylinder as originally created and the original ammo would be cool.

Anyone thought of the 44 cal conversion cylinders they make with no problems with spacing with 6 cylinders, further they make 44 mag with lowered charges for them.

You already have a six shot conversion cylinder for the Remington,
here;

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/cart...-steel-frame-44-caliber-stainless-fluted.html

With these, you can use the 45 LC and the 45 Schofield. Reload your own using black powder or an equivalent and you'll have all the power you need.

Anyone thought of the 44 cal conversion cylinders they make with no problems with spacing with 6 cylinders, further they make 44 mag with lowered charges for them.

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If you read one of the posts a little bit further up the page, you will see that the six shot 44 caliber cylinder chamber diameters do not match the rifling of the barrel. The 1858 '44' caliber revolvers actually have barrel rifling groove diameters that pretty well match 45 caliber. If you want to shoot 44 caliber cartridges like 44 Colt in one, you will need to use hollow based bullets so the base of the bullet swells up to fit the rifling. I don't know if the 44 caliber cylinder is long enough to accept 44 Mag brass, or even 44 Special brass.

The six shot 45 caliber cylinders sold by Taylors with the chambers angled out slightly at the rear work fine. I have two of them.

MCgunner said:

I bought a Howell .45ACP conversion for my 5.5" Pietta '58. I couldn't be happier. I already cast for .45ACP and there's no chance of getting a warm .45 Colt load for my Ruger Blackhawk into the cylinder. The .45ACP is not found that commonly loaded with a cast bullet, but I cast for and handload mine for my Ruger KP90DC and the rounds are standard pressure and plenty safe for the Pietta frame.

The gun shoots to the very SAME POA as my cap and ball loads, 30 grains of pyrodex P and cornmeal filler topped with a RB. The .45ACP loads are also just as accurate. The bullet is a 200 grain Lee tumble lubed SWC.

This revolver shoots so well, I've lost much of my desire for an 1873 clone. BTW, from 25 yards, that bowling pin in the background ain't got a chance.

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WOW! Love the 45ACP set up!
Nice to hear about the accuracy that you are achieving....I've often wondered about the 45ACP through the 1858 clones.