“I’m Against Guns and Violence, Unfortunately Reality Has Intruded..."

[riverdog]

Like a lot of the guys on this board I have a wide enough selection of handguns (1911's, S&W revolvers & a few Glocks) that if someone wanted to try a handgun for PD/HD, I probably have something they'd like -- BTDT. I don't understand why folks think the 1911 is difficult to shoot.

Yes, but the odds are very low that she'll get "proper training". A 1911 is a little complex for a beginner who doesn't have a good coach. with a .38, all she has to do is pull the trigger.

Complex? The 1911 should have a smooth fairly light (4-5#) single action trigger with a nice break. A good double action revolver trigger will be longer and heavier with more creep and in my opinion is more difficult to shoot well.

That said, I have gone to the dark side with Glock -- G17, 19 and 21. Once I learned the Glock short reset, the trigger wasn't much worse than a factory 1911 trigger, YMMV. The G21 probably has the softest recoil of any .45 ACP, all it requires is largish paws and for smaller frames, the G17/19 should work and with modern JHP ammo should provide a good PD tool. My CC pistol is a G-19 w/ 147gr Gold Dots. $.02

 

[Jeff White]

S&T isn't about hardware. Hardware is the very last thing you should think of when deciding to assist someone in becoming self sufficient. With the proper mindset the tool is immaterial. Plenty of attacks have been thwarted by cheap .22 revolvers and single shot shotguns.

This thread is in S&T and if it's going to stay open discussion will remain on topic, that means Strategies and Tactics....not tools.

 

[gyp_c2]

hmmm...

...sounds like her habits are known to the guy and those may have to change...
Stay off the errornet...
Move somewhere safe long enough to gain a little distance, change phones, anything he already knows, needs to change or he'll know everything she's doing...
...or not...just thinking out loud...
I can only speak for myself, but if I knew that someone was able to track me, I'd find out how, and lose that connection like a bad habit......g

 

[Kayback]

Jeff, I agree, and I never meant to drag it into a gear debate.

I just tend to get rialed up when people go "Hey there purty lady, you's don't needs to look at those, those are men's guns. Here is one for you." and lead them straight to revolvers. In .38.

It is similar to people who say shotguns are good beginner weapons, when they aren't. To work a pump gun you need to moves lots of body parts in the correct order. And deal with lots of recoil. With a semi auto rifle you have to flex your trigger finger. This is also true for a semi auto shotgun, but then you are dealing with the recoil and limited capacity.

I also think gear does dictate tactics quite a bit. These are being touted as beginner weapons remember? With limited training 5 or 6 shots might not be enough. You might need the 15th round in your mag to disable your target if you aren't very good at shooting. You probably won't, but why take that risk?

With a limited time frame and thinking limited experience I'd also suggest a laser. Again, this is the lazy way out, because using a laser doesn't teach propper shooting techniques, but it is the easiest, quickest method for first timers and IMHO perfect for sock drawer type guns.

This all impacts on how you train and what tactics you use.

Like the OP says, I happen to disagree with some of the points. The main on being the major cop out at the end : "Finally, she looks up at me and says: “What’s to stop Ned from killing me in the next ten days?”

I have no answer......

“What more could you have done?”

Shrugging, I admit I have no idea."

There is plenty more he could have done. Less than lethal weapons to bridge the gap, self defence lessons, maybe getting them out of town for a while.

In most cases changing everything isn't that easy. People have lives that they use to support themselves. Generally upping an pulling out isn't as easy as it sounds. Not many people have the finances available for it.

Changing telephone numbers works, but most smart abusive people can get the new contact details anyway. They know how to charm the people who have the new details to get them. Most of the time not being able to get hold of them will annoy them further.

Restraining orders aren't magic force fields, but calling the cops when someone is in breach of one is a good idea.

If nothing else one of those one day women's self defence classes is a good idea. While they never get given really good info, they are a good grounding, and it shows the woman what's what. They are also now "in the system". Putting them in touch with like minded people is always a good idea. It can re inforce and help educate them.

Not knowing or not helping more is a pretty sad cop out.

Most of us who have had training have contacts. Like I said I've got the business cards of a couple of trainers in my wallet all the time, and I've got the numbers for a couple more on my cell phone. It doesn't take 10 seconds to get the numbers and to pass them on.

IMHO it is all part and parcel of wanting to help other people and self defence. I've been in the same situation as the reporter in the story a couple of times. But after experiencing it once I made sure that my arsenal of knowledge was up to scratch.

KBK

 

[Deanimator]

Restraining orders aren't magic force fields, but calling the cops when someone is in breach of one is a good idea.

Just don't expect that to "protect" you. No duty, not ability.

What calling the police does is pre-position your self-defense claim. "X violated the restraining order Y times. I called the police Z times. X was not in custody when he attacked me. I was in fear of life and limb and shot to stop his attack."

 

[Webbj0219]

A J-frame 38 will kick more than a 45 cal 1911. and wont be as accurate at a distance. I know from personal experience at the range. Plus it carries a less potent round than the 45. But with all that against it. If you need a gun that you can keep in your purse or draw or something for 10 years, Pull it out in a pinch without having to dust it off, and have it go bang when you want it to. Id recomend the 38 wheel-gun.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

More of a LIE, really, calculated to justify preventing you from protecting yourself without providing any meaningful protection by third parties.

If a cop SEES you in trouble, he'll come to the rescue, USUALLY. Of course having him or her SEE you is the problem, isn't it?

Criminals tend not to be very bright, but then neither do great white sharks and Nile crocodiles. The odds are, nobody's going to try to rob or rape you in front of your local police station. Neither are they going to kick in your front door when a marked police car is parked in front of your house with two cops in it. Instead, they're going to do these things in a parking lot or your home at night when there AREN'T police around.

Entirely too many people think of 911 as a matter transporter, not a communications system of variable efficacy. How long did it take the cops to enter the building in Binghamton, NY? If there was an hour delay between pulling the trigger and something coming out of the barrel, I wouldn't carry a gun for individual protection; why then do people rely on 911 and the police? That of course assumes that your assailant ALLOWS you to dial 911. Why WOULD he? I wouldn't want to try to chamber a round in a semi-auto handgun while trying to fend off somebody with a butcher knife. How would it be any easier trying to call the police on a cell phone in the same situation? And after all that, you're TRUSTING that 911 will be working, AND that you'll get a reasonably intelligent 911 operator with common sense. That's NOT guaranteed. You could instead get somebody who demands that you put on the line, the person who just shot you in the abdomen. That actually happened in Detroit.

One more time:
1. Police have no legal duty to protect individuals.
2. Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
3. Police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals. 911 is NOT a matter transporter.

Protect YOURSELF as an individual or in most cases, don't get protected AT ALL.

Agreed. Too many people, especially on gun sites, use the "police don't have to protect you" law as a way of claiming that police don't even have to try to won't try and will instead drink coffee and laugh while you get shot. The truth is, the vast majority of police will try to protect you. That's probably the reason why they became police in the first place. But they are human and they are not everywhere. The law is meant to protect police officers from legal liability for failing to protect someone. It is so people cannot sue the officers if something goes wrong and people do end up getting hurt. That's it. Don't confuse absolving the officers of liability with "they will only try to protect their political masters". That latter claim is BS.

 

[Deanimator]

Agreed. Too many people, especially on gun sites, use the "police don't have to protect you" law as a way of claiming that police don't even have to try to won't try and will instead drink coffee and laugh while you get shot. The truth is, the vast majority of police will try to protect you. That's probably the reason why they became police in the first place. But they are human and they are not everywhere. The law is meant to protect police officers from legal liability for failing to protect someone. It is so people cannot sue the officers if something goes wrong and people do end up getting hurt. That's it. Don't confuse absolving the officers of liability with "they will only try to protect their political masters". That latter claim is BS.

It depends upon where you live.

I've lived in places where the police were great, and where they were utterly worthless, even less than worthless. It doesn't matter. I consider the Berea, Ohio police the best I've ever seen. I don't have ANY illusions that they would have ever "protected" me as an individual... at least not until somebody can find a way to make a Crown Victoria exceed the speed of light. But of course they still have to get out of it on foot to reach my location... assuming that my assailant is polite enough to stop chasing me with that butcher knife long enough to let me call 911 in the first place.

It's simply unreasonable and irrational to expect to be protected as an individual, by the BEST 911 operators and cops in the nation.

 

[Kayback]

Deanimator, yeah, that's what I was trying to convey when I said calling them is a good idea. Brushing it off and letting him/her get away with breaking the restraining order is a waste of everyone's time. Call the cops. Let them know, and record, that the system is failing.

KBK

 

[Corporal K]

Complex? The 1911 should have a smooth fairly light (4-5#) single action trigger with a nice break. A good double action revolver trigger will be longer and heavier with more creep and in my opinion is more difficult to shoot well.

Yes. Please don't be delusional. A young lady, already timid around weapons with no one to show her the ropes is NOT going to benefit from a 1911. Don't kid yourself, it's not going to happen. It doesn't matter if you like them. For her, it's a recipe for disaster.

She doesn't need to learn to "shoot it well". She needs to be able to put a couple of rounds into the stalker at contact distance.

Her needs are greatly different from the needs of pot-bellied white guys who meet at the range every Wednesday night.

 

[SSN Vet]

"they will only try to protect their political masters". That latter claim is BS.

I am not suggesting that police officers do not have a moral inclination to protect the public....

I am not "slamming" officers.... but rather the political system that sets the policy for them, feeds them their priorities, assigns them their duties and ultimately cuts them their paychecks.

Here's my point....

If you are threatened with violence... perhaps by an ex spouse, perhaps by a disgruntled former employee, perhaps by a drunken parent at your kids soccer game, do you think the police are going to assign an officer to provide you with personal protection?

If the mayor, or your congressman, or the head of a state agency is threatened with violence, I GREATLY suspect that the law enforcement agency with jurisdiction will offer to allocate resources for their protection.

In some states, the disparity between the value of the life of the "elect" and the "peon" is even codified.....

Just look at New Hampshire. If you murder an elected official, or an agent of the state, then the AG can charge you with capital murder and seek the death penalty. While if you commit the exact same murder, in the exact same manner, with the exact same motive, but this time the victim is an ordinary citizen, the LAW prevents the AG from charging you with capital murder.

The "politcal masters" have taken care of themselves, and shown very little concern for Joe Blow.

YET..... they all talk up their "tuff stand against crime" from one side of their mouth, while decrying the need to regulate and restrict the populations access to the means to protect themselves from the other.

That's my point.

When it comes right down to it.... the police are cogs in the machine and pawns in the system, regardless of how virtuous or corrupt they are.

I'll add this.... I have a close relatives who is a career LEO, and a GREAT guy. He does not contest my point of view on this at all. But rather, he confirms that the larger the agency (big city P.D., State Police, etc...) the more political it gets.

Can you name a state govenor who has been assasinated? Yet look at how many state police assets that one man gets allocated to his security.

 

[gripper]

I really don't see any bad advice here except for maybe specifying a J-frame( I agree that a J -frame +effective load+RECOIL).....that said;I especially liked the "flip-flops " advice....
Someone here ( or closeby) posted ofetn that "gun control is the premise that a 100 pound woman has the right to fistfight with a 250lb rapist"....
I DO believe in training th ewhol epackage-mindset,physical training-conditioning;and the whole gamut of combative defense -from un-armed to include contact weapons ,going up to and including firearms...not MANDATING it,but advising it as an undertaking to be commenced soonest.

 

[LibShooter]

The truth is, a .45 ACP may be too much gun for her. Not because she is a woman, or presumably smaller than the average THR member. It may be too much gun because her fear and dislike will keep her from shooting whichever gun she gets.

Most of us here really like guns. I do, so I shoot mine when I can and just hold them when I cant. I slide the slides, work the levers, and spin the cylinders.

The lady in the store might take her gun home. Maybe she'll load it. Put it in her night stand and the very first time she ever pulls the trigger will be when the human virus is coming through her bedroom door. That's not the way it should happen, buy that's often the way it does happen.

For her, the simplest gun possible is the best choice. I love my automatics, but they are way more complicated than revolvers.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I spent my own money to become an NRA instructor to have the credentials to help just this kind of individual. I hate the thought of anyone being afraid of using firearms just because they've never been taught the principles of safe gun handling.

I'll teach anyone, for free. It is the best way that I can think of for me to uphold and protect our rights.

 

[Kayback]

luzyfuerza - Clap clap clap clap.

I applaud you.

KBK

 

[KBT1911]

Having a gun will only help her if she is willing and able to use it. She needs to get with an instructor, test some guns, and find one she can handle that will stop any Neds who appear. If she ends up too terrified of them to use them she is screwed and needs a plan B.

As for your role, All you can do is give the best advice you can and move on out. Don't date that chick. She will screw up your world forever. I don't care if she is hot.

I like the description of the 2 black women-"Two elderly black women... The women wear colorful bonnets. Yup, they dressed up to go gun shopping."

Those women know how to shop! Ladies, remember to wear a colorful bonnet while gun shopping. It shows class.