beeenbag
Member
Was really surprised at the outcome of this. Thoughts?
Both are very good calibers.
I use 10mm in a semi automatic. I tend to skip up to 44 mag in a revolver though
Both calibers are great fun in revolvers!
Was really surprised at the outcome of this. Thoughts?
My thoughts 10mm = 357 mag; 357 will have a penetration advantage, 10mm will have a wound track size advantage as well as a greater weight bullet selection.
I really like both cartridges, however my woods gun is a Glock 40 10mm with a 6.5” Lone Wolf barrel.
I put together this spreadsheet to show the top end factory loads:
View attachment 953412
I think on big nasty predators the 357 still edges out the 10mm in pure power, though the 10mm can come pretty close and allows for greater capacity and reload speed.
Check out these heavy outdoorsman loads and foot lb numbers. Just an example.
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=160
OUTDOORSMAN - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=162
So the 10mm is driving a slightly heavier bullet slightly slower, 357 a lighter bullet slightly faster.
But nearly 800 foot lbs in the 357 is impressive, good medicine if you like a revolver for field carry. Single action shooting is also a helpful option if you really need to place a round at a specific point on target.
But 44 magnum is in its own class and can double these numbers if loaded up for bear, so to speak.
Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. Hard Cast, L.F.N. - G.C. (1,425 fps/M.E. 1,533 ft. lbs.) - wow!
Energy is irrelevant with handguns, because they don't have the velocity to use it. So power with handguns is determined by size of permanent wound channel only. And a heavier and wider bullet will typically have greater momentum, and will almost always penetrate farther and make a bigger wound than a lighter bullet of smaller caliber but similar nose profile and construction.
And there is no SAAMI spec for +P or +P+ .44 Remington Magnum. If it is .44 Magnum and it is loaded above 36,000 PSI, it is simply overpressure. It is not +P or +P+, which are official industry designations with actual meanings and standards applied to them.
That sentence makes no sense.Energy is irrelevant with handguns, because they don't have the velocity to use it.
So a .429 inch diameter 240gr JHP will be equally effective at 750 fps as 1300 fps? Neither of us believe that. Energy and momentum (inseparable physical properties of a projectile in motion) do have meaning even at pistol velocities.
Shoot enough stuff with both your 44 Special and your 44 Magnum and that velocity will show you what extra it can do.
What did the extra work you just described? The extra expansion, the increased permanent wound channel size, the extra penetration? Kinetic energy did that work, it is the only energy a bullet has to do anything at the target. Just because there is not a nice simple and linear relationship between any one of those factors and the kinetic energy of the bullet does not mean the kinetic energy is not doing all that extra work. There is no other mechanism possible other than kinetic energy to do the work, unless our bullet brings another energy source like high explosives or incendiary with it.The 240 gr JHP @ 1300 fps will expand faster and to a greater diameter, increasing permanent wound channel size, and provide momentum for penetration, increasing permanent wound channel depth. Both of these increase the volume of the permanent wound channel, and therefore, the effectiveness of the round. But the 240 gr JHP going 1300 fps will not be twice as effective as the JHP going 750 fps, as its energy wound suggest, because energy doesn't really contribute to wounding at handgun velocities. Basic physics says impulse is as important as quantity of energy. Tissue is elastic enough to stretch, deform, and return to normal having absorbed incredible amounts of energy without damage because the impulse was too long. i.e, the impact velocity of the projectile was too slow. It takes an impact velocity of about 2200 fps to start seeing consistent, useful amounts of stretch cavitation, or hydrostatic shock damage. At rifle velocities, tissue can not stretch far or fast enough, it tears and breaks down, damaging tissue for several inches from the path of the bullet; damage rarely seen out of even a magnum pistol cartridge, even out of a carbine. This is due to the shorter impulse of a higher velocity. For energy to contribute significantly to wounding requires it to have a short enough impulse, a high enough impact velocity, to exceed the stretch threshold of the tissue being penetrated. Hanguns, even large caliber magnum handguns, can't consistently do this, hence, energy is nearly completely irrelevant to the discussion of handgun effectiveness.
What did the extra work you just described? The extra expansion, the increased permanent wound channel size, the extra penetration? Kinetic energy did that work, it is the only energy a bullet has to do anything at the target. Just because there is not a nice simple and linear relationship between any one of those factors and the kinetic energy of the bullet does not mean the kinetic energy is not doing all that extra work. There is no other mechanism possible other than kinetic energy to do the work, unless our bullet brings another energy source like high explosives or incendiary with it.
Bullet expansion is a product of velocity, not energy.
A bullet has energy as mass and velocity. The only way the bullet does work, or loses energy, is by losing velocity or mass. A bullet expands as a matter of velocity. This is why bullet manufactures will list a minimum velocity for expansion and a maximum velocity for retained weight or optimal diameter. As a bullet expands, it creates a larger wound, but also increases in frontal area and drag. This causes it to lose velocity, and thus energy, at a higher rate. As this energy is absorbed by the body, it displaces tissue, but at handgun velocities, this energy is simply absorbed by the body. That displaced tissue is technically work being done. But it isn't being done fast enough to damage the tissue it is displacing, and thus is simply absorbed by the elasticity of our tissue without damage. Again, for those sleeping in the back of the classroom, impulse matters. The energy from a handgun still does work, still displaces tissue, but it does it too slowly to damage the tissue, and thus, doesn't contribute significantly to wounding.
We have two factors to consider here; quantity of energy and impulse. The impulse is how fast the energy is transferred. Think push vs shove. A 240 gr bullet @ 1450 fps and a 62 gr bullet @ 2950 fps have similar energy, but behave in vastly different ways because the 5.56 round has an impulse less than half the length of the .44 Mag round's. If for comparison sake, both bullets come to a rest still inside the body, the target will have absorbed the same amount of energy, but that energy will have done vastly more damage and contributed to its overwhelming effectiveness of the 5.56 round because it is being absorbed in 1/2 the time. The bullet has twice the velocity, and easily exceeds the 2200 fps threshold for hydrostatic shock, and so it actually is able to use its energy to contribute to wounding. I have seen deer shot with both of these loads and there is nothing you can load in a .44 Magnum that will do half the damage of an expanding 5.56 load, even though they have similar energy.