10mm

[critrxdoc]

I have read with interest the discussions occuring for and against the 10mm, and it appears that there is not often middle ground in this discussion. I read with the interest the threads in the link documentary that warriorsociologist was kind enough to initiate:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=206247

I must say that I do not understand why the potential of the 10mm has not been recognized by more handgun enthusiasts.

The arguments against the 10mm that I have ascertained from the various threads of which J2C seems to be the most vocal are as follows:

The potential benefits of 10mm have not been demonstrated in actual use. Well it seems irrational to me to relegate a caliber to the sidelines due to lack of demonstrated efficacy when the round has not been adopted by many of the major military or LE agencies and therefore has limited experience. It appears to me that most of the rationale for not adopting the 10mm is contained in political decisions and the fact that many of the LE agencies have officers who cannot handle the full power loads and qualify with them. It would seem logical to me to allow the one's who can qualify to carry it.

There have been comment that there becomes a law of diminishing returns where increases FPS or FPE no longer improves efficacy. This to me also seems irrational as most if not all combat experts would agree that a handgun is an inferior weapon compared to a rifle or shotgun. So if we have reached the maximum benefit with a 9mm or 40cal, then why are handguns inferior weaponry to shotguns or rifles?

There seems to be a concern with overpenetration with the 10mm rounds. If one is concerned with overpenetration of the standard 175-180gr rounds, then one could simply adopt a 165gr, 155gr, or even a 135gr round where penetration seems to be confined to the 11-14inch ballistic gelatin territory.

"The 10mm requires a large platform". Yes and so does the 45acp that has often been offered up as the temple by which all should bow, as in "I will stick to my 45acp as that it all the gun anyone would ever need"

Statements have also been made that the 10mm is an auto equivalent to the 357mag nothing more. I just do not see this, as most hot loaded commercial ammo I have compared has the 10mm at a 100fps and 70-80fpe advantage. Granted 41mag comparison would have to be on the low end of the 41mag range, but a better comparison to than the 357mag.

In summary, I believe that the 10mm has received a bad rap and although it seems to be gaining some in popularity recently, popularity does not equate to effectiveness. It equates to many factors in the handgun market much of which is driven by politics in the military and major LE offices.

JMHO, Thoughts?

 

[shooter94]

I've got a Delta Elite...wish I had more 10mm pistols.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Well it seems irrational to me to relegate a caliber to the sidelines due to lack of demonstrated efficacy when the round has not been adopted by many of the major military or LE agencies and therefore has limited experience.

I'm with you all the way. There are many calibers that fit this very bill. The latest being the .45 GAP. Both the 10mm and the .45 GAP do the same thing every other round out there does...

 

[jc2]

Statements have also been made that the 10mm is an auto equivalent to the 357mag nothing more. I just do not see this, as most hot loaded commercial ammo I have compared has the 10mm at a 100fps and 70-80fpe advantage.

The you've been looking at the wrong hot-loaded commercial ammunition:

.357 Magnum (Buffalo Bore)/180-grains/1375 fps/756 fpe
10mm (Double Tap)/180-grains/1350 fps/728 fpe
.357. Magnum: +25 fps/+28 fpe

.357 Magnum (BB)/170-grains/1411 fps/752 fpe
10mm (DT)/165-grains/1425 fpe/744 fpe
.357 Magnum: -14 fps/+8 fpe

.357 Magnum (BB)/158-grains/1485 fps/774 fpe
10mm (DT)/155-grains/1475 fps/750 fpe
.357 Magnum: +10 fps/+24 fpe

Out of the two most common platforms (a S&W L-frame revolver and a Glock 20), it is clear there is practically no difference between the two in terms of MV or ME. The 10mm is the autoloader equivalent of the .357 Magnum.

The potential benefits of 10mm have not been demonstrated in actual use.

Those remarks are in reference to ammunition that uses bullets designed .40 S&W velocities and drives them much faster. There is a very real chance of degraded or less than optimal performance under those circumstances. BTW, there are a few 10mm loads with a decent (as good as anything else) performance record including the Winchester Silvertip and the Federal Hydra-Shok.

 

[leadcounsel]

The 10mm is oft compared to the .357 Mag. Plenty of research on the .357 as the most effective man stopping handgun caliber. Nobody says the .357 Mag is overkill.

Why then is the 10mm not effective or more effective than the .40?

 

[nitesite]

If I carried a Smith & Wesson Model 25 4" .45 Long Colt revolver should I switch to something else just because I can't find documented FBI data to make me feel comfortable with it?

I'm a 10mm owner and carry one every day. Hope to never use it in a serious situation. But if I should be required to employ it I like that it's there and that it is a 10mm.

BTW, my other carry guns are a 442 with 158-gr LSWC +P, or a couple of .45 ACP pistols. Any of them is adequate. I'm not rabid about the 10mm. But I'm a big fan.

 

[jc2]

Why then is the 10mm not effective or more effective than the .40?

Effectiveness depends largely on the bullet. It's really not just about the calibre. The 10mm, with the right bullets, can be every bit as effective as the .40 S&W or any of the service calibres; however, just driving a bullet faster does not necessarily make it more effective. There's a lot more at work in effectiveness than just MV.

 

[loadedround]

I too own and shoot a 10mm Delta Elite. The 10mm cartridge is a reloaders dream caliber and it far surpasses anything the 40s&w can possibly do except possibly perceived recoil. But it's been said many times over, the 10mm is not for the faint of heart.

 

[sigma 40ve]

I have a Glock 29. My wife and I both love it. Our next Glock is going to be the G20. We really like the 10mm. My wife has no problem at all about the recoil, in fact the first time she shot the G29 with PMC 200gr bullets she asked "whats so special about this?" Since then she has came to really like the 10mm.

 

[CPLofMARINES]

Good topic! Just considering a Glock 20 myself. I like the high cap over a
.357 revolver. What the hell is Buffalo Bore ammo? Never heard of it.


Semper Fi!!

 

[denfoote]

I used to have a 10mm Glock 29.

It was a decent gun except for the following:

1) The frame was to big for my hand.

2) the ammunition was to expensive.

It got traded away for a Glock 23.

 

[wally]

Effectiveness depends largely on the bullet. It's really not just about the calibre

No, effectiveness depends on bullet placement and adaquate penetration far more than caliber.

Any of the major calibers have adaquate penetration, but when muzzle blast and recoil reach such a level that it affects ones ablity to properly place the bullet on target you've gone past the point of diminshing returns. Many people feel 10mm has crossed this threshold, same reason some folks choose 9mm over .45ACP -- and if they achive better bullet placement with the 9mm it was the right choice for them!

--wally.

 

[JohnKSa]

Here's a chart that some may find useful.

It plots energy vs bullet weight for the following calibers using ALL the loads from the all of the ammunition makers listed.

.357SIG
.40S&W
357Magnum
10mm
.41Magnum

Federal
Winchester
Remington
Fiocchi
Double Tap
Georgia Arms
CCI
Buffalo Bore
Hornady
PMC
Sellier & Bellot
Black Hills
Wolf
CorBon

Here are the average energy figures for each caliber averaged across ALL the loads available from all the manufacturers above.
41Magnum-->800 ft/lbs
10mm ------>598 ft/lbs
357Magnum->549 ft/lbs
357SIG----->515 ft/lbs
40S&W----->439 ft/lbs

Some amplifying information:

• 40S&W & 357Sig are usually tested in 4" barrels
• 10mm is usually tested in 5" barrels
• 357Mag is usually tested in 4" vented barrels--probably very roughly equivalent to a 5" autopistol barrel.
• 41Mag is tested in various lengths from 4" vented to 8.375" vented with 4" vented being most common.
• I would have included more makers, but a couple of the lower budget companies don't post velocity numbers on the web.
• There are a LOT of errors in ballistics charts. I wrote a quick check in Excel to catch my entry errors and caught a bunch of website errors instead.
• The very light bullet loads are the Glaser Safety rounds.
• If you count the dots in the plot, you'll come up with a number much lower than the number of loads. Several manufacturers offer multiple loads with identical ballistics but different bullets which means that you often have multiple dots overlaying perfectly.
• The chart order goes like this. .41Mag dots will be on top of any dot. 40S&W will be on top of any dot other than .41Mag and so on until .357SIG is not on top of any other dot. I tried to make the .357SIG and 10mm dots larger than the others so they'd show even if they're under another caliber's dot. I couldn't do much about the pileup where the 125grain bullets end up on the chart.

 

[warriorsociologist]

Critrxdoc,
Thanks for posting the link to the "link documentary."

I won't enter this debate again, but I will only say that I do think the 10mm / .357 comparison is generally a good one when you consider maximum .357 loads. Again, I've pointed out that when used in matching firearms and/or barrel lengths, the 10mm does have an advantage over the .357 mag when you consider heavy loads, but it's still pretty close. For details, just go back and puruse the linked threads.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Again?

critrxdoc asked a rather narrowly-defined set of questions, and they have some merit in their own right. He also cited a very good reference thread, at - -
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=206247

In just the past month, there have been at least three threads in which the 10mm vs. WHATEVER thing was done to death. They covered much of this exact same ground, and we're on the way down the same path with this thread.

Please see, in Handguns: General Discussion, the thread entitled, "Civil discussion about 10mm, .40 cal, .357 please"
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=205084

In Handguns: Autoloaders - - "Does anyone here shoot S&W 1006?"
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=204445

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=205123&highlight=10mm

The Search button is your friend. Please use it occasionally.

Look, friends - - I don't maintain that there's NOTHING NEW to be said. I'm gratified to see JohnKSa's entry, with a chart I haven't previously seen.

Let's do this, please. Take a little while and READ the above threads. If, after you do, you have something NEW to offer, something ON POINT in answer to the original post in this thread, then write something interesting. Please spare us the "Well, I've got a 10mm Keckler und Schmidt and I love it." And NO "+1" stuff, huh?

Colleague Moderator Stephen Camp and I have corresponded about this deal and we're willing to be tolerant. This thread, though tiresome and repetitive, has remained polite so it will not be closed out of hand. Keep it nice.

Thanks to all
Johnny

 

[MCgunner]

I don't quite get all the huff over the 10mm VS .357 stuff. I mean, one's an auto pistol, one's a revolver cartridge. And, to be said as equal to the .357 in an auto pistol is an awesome compliment. I think the 10 is a much better compliment to the .357 than the Sig is. It shoots more game worthy bullets and is an outdoor/hunting capable caliber just like the .357 magnum is in a revolver.

In my own experience, the .357 needs a 6" barrel to equal energy levels of the 10 out of a 5" service sized auto.

Of the two, I much prefer the .357 magnum, not because I don't appreciate the 10, but because I prefer revolvers for outdoor uses. Neither makes for a very controllable round in a pocket sized snubby and you can't get the 10 in such a small sized gun, so I carry neither for self defense.

 

[jc2]

to be said as equal to the .357 in an auto pistol is an awesome compliment.

Exactly!

 

[kbheiner7]

I want a 10mm 1911 in the worst way - probably an Eclipse for carry.

 

[critrxdoc]

It appears to me that the only 357mag that can approach the 10mm are the Buffalo Bore loads. I was unable to ascertain if they were shooting from a 4" or 6" barrel. DoubleTap and Black Hills ammo does not come close, unless the 357mag is being shot out of a 6" barrel which I do not think is a fair comparison. So I think looking at the Buffalo Bore #'s are deceptive. The other alternate explanation would be that Buffalo Bore is exceeding the pressure levels that DoubleTap and Black Hills use. See for yourself:

Manufacturer Caliber Round FPS FPE[/B]
Buffalo Bore 357mag 125JHP 1700 802
Black Hills 357mag 125JHP 1500 625
Double Tap 357mag 125JHP 1600 710
Black Hills 357mag 158 JHP 1250 548
Buffalo Bore 357mag 158 JHP 1475 763
Double Tap 357mag – 4” 158 JHP 1400 688
Double Tap 357mag – 6” 158 JHP 1520
Buffalo Bore 10mm 180JHP 1350 728
Double Tap 10mm 135JHP 1600 767
Double Tap 10mm 155JHP 1475 750
Double Tap 10mm 165JHP 1400 718
Double Tap 10mm 180JHP 1350 728

 

[Fosbery]

I love my 10mm. I used to have a S&W 610, a Colt Delta Elite, a Bren Ten (only one in the UK as far as I know) and a Glock 20 (I say I used to have, because they have now been moved to Switzerland and I sold the S&W anyway). I never had a problem with the recoil and it never bothered me that it hadn't been combat tested. I've owned guns in the other major calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357) and the 10mm seemed to compare favourably. I would use it for defence or combat but I'm sure there are plenty of people who would prefer a softer firing gun, and .40 or .45 are perfect for them. Also, I probably wouldn't carry 10mm on my everyday as I think I'd prefer a smaller, sub-compact gun so .40 S&W would probably be my choice. Having said that, perhaps if more guns were designed around 10mm we might see softer recoil. I don't get too fixated on stopping power, at the end of the day if I shoot you with anything above .38 special, you're going down - unless you're hyped up on battle fever (unlikely in a criminal situation) or pumped full of drugs (again, unlikely) or you're wearing armour (in that case I probably need a rifle but it's unlikely anyway). However, if I can shoot 9mm happily, but I can also shoot the more powerful 10mm happily, I suppose I might as well use the latter.

 

[jc2]

I was unable to ascertain if they were shooting from a 4" or 6" barrel. DoubleTap and Black Hills ammo does not come close, unless the 357mag is being shot out of a 6" barrel which I do not think is a fair comparison. So I think looking at the Buffalo Bore #'s are deceptive.

Nope, critrxdoc, you're wrong about the fair comparison. The numbers quoted are from a four-inch L-frame:

4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
170gr JHC = 1411 fps
Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps​

The .357 Magnum from a four-inch revolver can easily match the 10mm from a Glock 20. There's nothing deceptive about it (though you might want to ask or do a little more research before you jump to faulty--or maybe pre-conceived--conclusions).

The other alternate explanation would be that Buffalo Bore is exceeding the pressure levels that DoubleTap and Black Hills use.

Nope, all Buffalo Bore loads are SAAMI spec just like Double Tap's. I find it amusing though many level the very same accusation (excessive pressure levels) at Double Tap's 10mm loads. Buffalo Bore does for the .357 Magnum what Double Tap does for the 10mm--nothing more and nothing less.

Black Hills does not really load any of their ammunition "hot" (and you might have noticed, they don't even load a 10mm). If you had bothered to check any of the big three (Federal, Remington, Winchester), you would have noticed the same (or greater) differences between their 10mm loads and Double Tap's.

 

[agtman]

For JohnKSa: Thanks for posting the graph. Some interesting info there.

 

[JohnKSa]

The top 6 energy loads comparing the 10mm to the .357Mag are all Buffalo Bore & Double Tap--three of each.

You have to be careful with Buffalo Bore's cataloged velocity/energy ratings because they list chrono data from several guns for each load and you have to play mix & match to determine which gun was used to get the catalog figures.

The top three .357Mag Buffalo Bore energy figures are taken in 6", 5" and 4" barrel revolvers respectively counting down from the top. They list the chrono data on the website along with the guns used for anyone who's interested. I used the cataloged numbers in my spreadsheet and matched them to the guns based on which gun chronoed closest to the cataloged number to get the barrel length information.

The Black Hills 125gr .357Mag load matches the Hornady 125gr XTP loading and they are the hottest 125gr .357Mag loads available besides the 125gr .357Mag offerings from Double Tap and Buffalobore.

I used energy figures in the plot because they're easily available and are a commonly used comparison parameter. Many people think that energy's not the best measure of handgun performance.

For those of you who favor Power Factor (and I'm not one of them), here's the same graph but with Power Factor plotted instead of energy.

Average Power Factor over all the loads for all the manufacturers listed above are:
.41Mag---->275
10mm----->214
.357Mag-->189
.40S&W--->180
.357SIG--->168

 

[jc2]

Directly from the Buffalo Bore website. Their loads out of a Marlin Carbine are really impressive.

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver—this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don’t phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don’t recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You’ll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100
a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

 

[surfinUSA]

I really like the 10mm. At its worst, it equals the 40 S&W (which is a great self defense round). Then it moves up through the best 357 mag rounds (another excellent self defense and woods round). Then right up to the low end 41 magnum rounds, Winchester silver tip etc. (a great woods round even if its not a 44 mag.) The truth is that even in its most powerful forms the Glock 20 10mm has an acceptable recoil level and is very easy to control.

The only real down side of the 10mm is it needs a large frame gun, ammo can be expensive and hard to find especially at real 10mm levels. But it really is hard to find a more versatile gun than the glock 20. Add a 40 S&W conversion barrel and maybe an action arms 22 conversion and the G20 will handle everything from cheap practice, self defense and general woods/swamp carry and hunting.

I don't know why there is so much arguing and critisism of the 10mm. I like the 9mm, 40 S&W. 45 acp, 38 special, 357 and 44 magnums. And although I like or find some of the guns chambered in these calibers easier to carry for day to day law enforcement use than the G20, If I could only have one handgun it would probably be the Glock 20, just for its all around versatility.

If it matters for day to day carry at work and off duty, I usually carry a G26, Sig 239 in 40 or on the rare occasions I'm in uniform, a Sig 220. Some of this is because of Department policy, but alot is personal preference. In S. Florida the G26 is an excellent self defense gun that works in a pocket holster. Even if i could carry the g20 at work I'd still carry the G26 or 239 because of size and weight considerations. In uniform I'd probably carry the G20 because its not really bigger than the P220 but carries a more powerful round and twice as many of them.