10mm

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here's the chrono data from the Buffalobore site with the actual cataloged energy/velocity figures highlighted.
1. 3 inch S&W J frame
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100
a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps
 
It equates to many factors in the handgun market much of which is driven by politics in the military and major LE offices.

Military: no big rush to "wondercalibers" .357SIG, .40S&W or .45GAP is there? Yet any can be shown to be "superior" than current inventory: faster/flatter trajectory than 9mm NATO, more capacity than .45ACP, smaller frame than .45ACP, etc. 10mm loses but so does everything else "new-and-improved!"

LE: if .40S&W is ballistically "better" than 9mm, then 10mm downloaded = .40 (in a bigger package) AND 10mm Norma-level > .40 (with stouter recoil). 10mm loses on ergonomics and NVH as a standard-issue weapon.

I said this a couple years ago, either here or TFL: nobody (relatively speaking) makes 10mm guns because nobody makes 10mm ammo, and nobody makes ammo because nobody makes guns. I'll now add that nobody stocks ammo because nobody makes ammo and nobody shoots 10mm because nobody is exposed to 10mm. :p

If Ruger made a P90/10 and PC10 and GP100/10; if S&W reintroduced the 10xxs and 610; if there was a CZ-97/10 and CZ-100/10 and a Springfield XD10...then you'd see serious 10mm ammo development from the major manufacturers and you'd be able to buy it at Wal-Mart. Leftovers, used guns, EAA and Dan Wesson had business issues, and Glocks (people complain about G20 ergos but not so much on the G21, go figure, same frame size!) and anyone wonders why the market is so weak? :rolleyes:

G20 + handloading or careful shopping = autoloader jack-of-all-trades
Model 28 + handloading or shopping, period = revolver jack-of-all-trades
Both are good. :)
 
It appears to me that the only 357mag that can approach the 10mm are the Buffalo Bore loads. I was unable to ascertain if they were shooting from a 4" or 6" barrel. DoubleTap and Black Hills ammo does not come close, unless the 357mag is being shot out of a 6" barrel which I do not think is a fair comparison. So I think looking at the Buffalo Bore #'s are deceptive. The other alternate explanation would be that Buffalo Bore is exceeding the pressure levels that DoubleTap and Black Hills use. See for yourself:

Manufacturer Caliber Round FPS FPE[/b]
Buffalo Bore 357mag 125JHP 1700 802
Black Hills 357mag 125JHP 1500 625
Double Tap 357mag 125JHP 1600 710
Black Hills 357mag 158 JHP 1250 548
Buffalo Bore 357mag 158 JHP 1475 763
Double Tap 357mag – 4” 158 JHP 1400 688
Double Tap 357mag – 6” 158 JHP 1520
Buffalo Bore 10mm 180JHP 1350 728
Double Tap 10mm 135JHP 1600 767
Double Tap 10mm 155JHP 1475 750
Double Tap 10mm 165JHP 1400 718
Double Tap 10mm 180JHP 1350 728

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only handloader on this site. :banghead: But, I don't shoot much factory junk. My old shooting buddy has an IAI Javelina in 10mm, a 5" gun. He is getting around 720-750 ft lbs energy with most of his hottest loads. He can't go hotter than the platform/recoil spring will let him. Most of my loads in .357 magnum are around 760 ft lbs out of a 6.5" Blackhawk. I have one that shoots a 180 grain XTP that has 785 ft lbs at the muzzle. That one's a little warm for most platforms, but the Blackhawk doesn't flinch at it.

The above chronographing and handloading experience is what I was referring to in my post. I've also chronographed my 14.5 grains 2400/158 grain SWCGC load in two 4" guns. In a Ruger Security Six (that gun shot really fast for some reason) I was over 700 ft lbs, but out of a Rossi M971, I was getting something over 600 ft lbs with the same load. I need to chronograph that load out of my Taurus M66 I have now for 4" comparison, I guess, but I think that old Security Six was a bit of an anomaly for some reason. I've yet to explain why it seemed to exceed other revolvers with the same load and barrel length.
 
I like to use ME calculations from the velocities in such comparisons because for most bullet weights, while they differ in velocity, the energy potential is similar.


G20 + handloading or careful shopping = autoloader jack-of-all-trades
Model 28 + handloading or shopping, period = revolver jack-of-all-trades
Both are good.

Absolutely, I don't see all the comparison fuss. Fact is, if you like autos, the 10 will do in an auto what the .357 does in a revolver. So what if one's a little hotter compared to the other in a 4", 6" whatever. They both do the same basic job. Neither is enough for much more than deer size game or black bear defense in the woods. Neither is enough for defense in Alaska against really big toothy critters. Either will work fine as a back woods gun in the lower 48 if you're not hiking griz country. In griz country, I'll take my .45 colt, thanks. They both do the same jobs, just different platforms. I'm a revolver guy. I don't own a 10mm. If Ruger chambered a Blackhawk in 10, that might be interesting. But, then, for the same price, if I wanna move up from .357 power level, I have the .41 mag or .44 mag or .45 Colt to choose from. The 10 and the .357 have no chance in that company.
 
G20 + handloading or careful shopping = autoloader jack-of-all-trades
Model 28 + handloading or shopping, period = revolver jack-of-all-trades
Both are good.
Yep. The only difference is do you want a wheelgun or a bottom feeder. :)
 
Seems to me that, considering the USUAL platforms for delivery of both, comparing 10mm to .357 is an illogical exercise in futile silliness. :)
 
Not really. It's ultimately a platform issue not a performance issue.

If you want .357 Magnum level performance with an autoloader, you get a 10mm.

If you want 10mm level performance with a revolver, you get a .357 Magnum.

If you want more than 10mm (or .357 Magnum) level performance, you get a .41 Magnum or .44 Magnum.
 
There hasn't been anything in this thread even close to saying "the 10mm will always be inferior to the 357mag." In fact, what the thread has said is that the 10mm is every bit as good as the .357 Magnum (and vice versa). There's been a lot data posted for Double Tap, Black Hills and Buffalo Bore loads. In fact, you've posted some of that data yourself. I haven't anything I would class as an "infomerical" or even recommendations for any manufacturers. FWIW, it's rather hard to talk about the 10mm and the .357 Magnum without talking about Double Tap and Buffalo Bore.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good table JohnKSa, but under "Some amplifying information:" you forgot to mention that velocity figures published by ammunition makers are rarely equaled when fired in a gun you actually have. I'm betting the hottest loads for the caliber are relatively most affected by this "phenominom". Also two nominally identical guns can easily show 50-100fps velocity variations with the same lot of ammo.

--wally.
 
Wow. :scrutiny:

Multiple posts from jc2 and he still hasn't laid a glove on the 10mm. :rolleyes:

No doubt, thanks to jc2, Mod Johnny Quest will lock this one down pronto. :eek:

Regardless, the undisputed facts here are quite simple: the 10mm at its hottest can tread into the mid-range territory of the .41magnum - and it can do so with larger, heavier slugs than the .357 mag (revolver) cartridge.

The 10mm can propel .400/10mm bullets ranging in weight from 135gns to 220gns. (i.e., 135gns, 150gns, 155gns, 165gns, 170gns, 175gns, 180gns, 190gns, 200gns, 210gns, 215gns, 220gns).

Name another "service cartridge" that can be housed in an autoloader of reasonable size and weight and that has the bullet-weight flexibility listed above or even a similar energy range (i.e., from the 400fpe to 800fpe) :what:

At the low end, the 10mm's power level can duplicate the ..40S&W and .45acp. The 10mm can easily handle EVERY .40cal/10mm bullet-weight that is currently available for the .40S&W and, in factory ammo, can employ several that the .40 can't - at least not without the .40 risking a KABOOM!. :uhoh:

:cool:
 
you forgot to mention that velocity figures published by ammunition makers are rarely equaled when fired in a gun you actually have.
I didn't really forget--more like I figured it went without saying which was probably a bad assumption on my part.

You are certainly correct. The reason these days is more the variables that differ from one test to the next (gun, temperature, etc.). However, before easy to use and inexpensive chronographs became widely available, advertising "inflation" was a major contributor. ;)
 
Originally posted by Cellar Dweller:
I said this a couple years ago, either here or TFL: nobody (relatively speaking) makes 10mm guns because nobody makes 10mm ammo, and nobody makes ammo because nobody makes guns. I'll now add that nobody stocks ammo because nobody makes ammo and nobody shoots 10mm because nobody is exposed to 10mm.

And today, you're wrong. Today, there are more factory 10MM guns and factory 10MM ammo than ever before. :D
 
Number of loads found (total) from the all of the following ammo makers

Remington
Double Tap
Buffalo Bore
CorBon
Winchester
Federal
PMC
S&B
Fiocchi
Hornady
Black Hills
Georgia Arms
CCI
Wolf

Number of loads found
.40S&W--->82
.357Mag-->68
10mm----->35
.357SIG--->27
.41Mag--->22

This is not exhaustive as I did not attempt to keep track of the loads for which there was no online velocity information available. You could probably bump all those figures up by about 10-20% or so for a rough guesstimate of total availability.

The 10mm may not be as popular as it once was, but it is not hard to find a wide variety of 10mm ammunition.

You can get it in bullet weights from 115 to 215 grains (average 173gr), velocities ranging from 950 to 1650fps (average 1253fps), energies from 361 to 767 ft/lbs (average 598ft/lbs) and IPSC power factors from 155 to 263 (average 214).
 
Yeah, I just don't understand why the 10mm has not caught on more. It is very versatile with many rounds available as articulated ranging from massive energy dumping personal defense rounds to 220grain powerhouse hunting rounds, it is the most powerful autoloader in a reasonable platform and is no bigger than the 45acp platform with a 15+ capacity in the G-20, it is easy to reload with no necked down cases, and is not much more to shoot than the 45, but can also usually be altered to carry a .40cal barrel for real economics. I just don't understand it?:confused:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've been turned off by the weapons, not the load. I desperately wanted a Delta Elite when they were in production, but couldn't afford one. Now they are fetching like new prices even when heavily used. I do not like the look of Glocks and EAAs, so I have no temptation to purchase either of those. Dan Wesson might just win me over if I ever actually manage to come across one that I can fondle one of these days.

For the most part I'm thinking they don't catch on more due to the widespread popularity of the .357 magnum. Folks that already own a .357 may be reluctant to spend money on a semi-auto that performs in almost exactly the same niche. Folks that like to hunt, but considered the .357 underpowered for their needs, seem to jump to the .44 magnum and beyond and bypass the 10mm and .41 magnums. The 10mm may (continue to) grow steadily as younger shooters looking to fill that niche for the first time opt for the semi-auto platform.
 
critrxdoc said:
Thank God for the ignore list!

What? You've already responded to all of his posts, even after you claimed to have put him on ignore. But in reading the other caliber wars, you're not alone in that (you guys can't stand it, you just have to read)- lol -he might come off kind of douchy, but he does own all of these threads, and it's like one on twelve. Has all the facts and a solid defense with the whole "track record" argument fleshed out in the other 10mm threads...

... but I personally disagree with it. I think it's obvious that the 10mm is the by far the most superior auto cartridge, given that .357mag vs 10mm is even an argument, considering you can have it in up to a 15 round more compact package than a revolver.

Only reason I don't shoot it is price. If it was more common, and prices were at least around .45acp neighborhood or lower, it would a no brainer for me. I just think it is a safe logical jump to say that if the .40sw is proven, then adding bullet mass and velocity to a proven performer can only increase success. I mean, that's what makes every other step in any projectile more successful over another. It's why the .40sw>9mm, and why the .357mag>.40sw. So if 10mm=.357mag, then I'm good with the transitive property of equality on 10mm>.40sw, even if the real world data isn't out there (yet) to back it up. Wasn't there, at some point, data that supported the .357mag as the best one shot stop out there?
 
There's a whole lot of reference to "FPE" with the assumption that it somehow proves that one caliber is better or more powerful than another. I beg to differ. Here is an exerpt from an article a wrote a few years back that has been modified slightly to reference the 10mm. The article was originally written for the Wyoming legislature.

The problem with "FPE" or "energy" calculations is that the diameter of the bullet is not included. Something that is .177" in diameter simply cannot strike an object with nearly the same force as something as something that is .460" in diameter without the smaller bullet traveling at insanely impossible speeds.

However, if we use the Taylor factor for comparing calibers, it kind of evens out the playing field.

Weight in grains x velocity in FPS x diameter in 1000's of an inch /7000=TKF

Although the number that you come up with is not pounds or anything else, it's just a relative number for comparison and is easily confirmed by shooting a ballistic pendulum.

The .454 with a 300 gr bulet @ 1500 fps figures to be 29.05

The .06 with a 165 gr. @ 2900 fps is 21.05

For comparison, the .357 w/158 gr @ 1350 is 10.87
and the 10mm with a 200 gr. bullet @1100 fps is 12.57
The .41 mag with a 210 gr. bullet @ 1300 fps comes out to 15.99

Here's another interesting comparison:
.223 w/55 gr @ 3000 is 5.28

Using the formula for energy that most use is ridiculous and proves nothing. Here's a couple of good examples.

If you look in your reloading manual or one of the hyped up little ads that the ammo makers put out, you'll find that the .223 delivers a little over 1000 lbs of "muzzle energy". The .44 mag also delivers a little over 1000 lbs. Sooo... does this make the .223 as effective for elk as a .44? Hardly.
Using that same silly formula,a 180 bullet from your '06 at 2700 fps generates 2913 ft lbs of "energy". Well now, a BB traveling at 16,250 fps generates 2932 ft lbs. The BB is slightly more powerful than the .06 yes? NO.

Without including the diameter in your formula, you can't get a true comparison of the force of 2 bullets of different diameter.

Remember, bullet performance has nothing to do with this only striking force of the projectile.

So there is really no fact to the assumption that 10mm is only equal to or less powerful than the .357. It actually falls somewhere between the .357 and the .41 mag
 
It all depends the loads you compare:

10mm with a 200 gr. bullet @1100 fps has a TKO 13 (your example)
.357 Magnum with a 180-grain bullet @1375 has a TKO 13 (Buffalo Bore)
.41 Magnum with a 230-grain bullet @1450 has a TKO of 20 (Buffalo Bore)​

The 10mm remains the autoloader equivalent of the .357 Magnum (nothing more/nothing less) while the .41 Magnum leaves them both in the dust.

BTW, TKO is normally rounded to the nearest whole number and not precise enough establish any real difference in performance between similar TKOs (e. g., 12, 13, 14). The TKO has a lot of shortcomings. For example, you cited the TKO for a.223 w/55 gr @ 3000 is 5. The TKO for .38 Special 158-grain +P LSWCHP @890 fps is 7. Are you as quick to postulate the "the 5.56 NATO actually falls somewhere between the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum"? Would you be willing to go so far as to suggest the .38 Special is a better anti-personnel round the 5.56 NATO base on their relative TKOs? ;)

When you get right down to it, the .357 Magnum and the 10mm are just too close to call. Both do what they do--whether in the hunting field or in a LE/defence role--equally well. Anyway you cut it, the only real difference between these two calibres is one is normally carried in a wheelgun, and the other is normally carried in a bottom feeder.
 
Last edited:
Interesting points Desert Scout. I would raise some questions though. We know that bullet weight increases penetration. A small projectile traveling at high velocity will rapidly dissapate or "dump" its energy rather rapidly. So I am not quite sure I buy the argument that a 44mag handgun is more effective than a .223 as a manstopper. Now if you bring in the fact that the target is an elk, then it changes the landscape, because you add a 4th dimension to the formula for penetration. That is why we shoot 110-125gr .357mag for personal defense and 200gr for hunting.

So my understanding based on this philosophy,
45acp X 835fps X 230gr = 12.3
22-250 X 3810fps X 50gr = 5.9

So a 45acp is 3 times the manstopper that a 22-250 is:confused:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The gun world is very market driven and the gun buying public rejected the 10mm cartridge from day one. The 10mm was a niche cartridge before the FBI adopted it. It was a niche cartridge during the short period the FBI used it. And it has continued being a niche cartridge since the FBI dumped it. That's the way it is and the way it's going to continue to be. Wishful thinking isn't going to change that.
 
RNB65 said:
The gun world is very market driven and the gun buying public rejected the 10mm cartridge from day one. The 10mm was a niche cartridge before the FBI adopted it. It was a niche cartridge during the short period the FBI used it. And it has continued being a niche cartridge since the FBI dumped it. That's the way it is and the way it's going to continue to be. Wishful thinking isn't going to change that.

Sorry, but pretty much every single statement you just made is factually incorrect. You may wish to read the linked posts, starting with the link in the original post in this thread.
 
If 2 of you would just read the damn article, you might understand a little better. I never said anything about anything being a manstopper. I said in the article that bullet performance was not taken into account. The only thing that was originally discussed here was POWER not performance. There is a tremendous difference.
Now if you bring in the fact that the target is an elk,
I did. THAT'S what the article was about to start with.

180 grain bullets are not routinely used in commercial .357 loads nor are 230 bullets used in .41's often. You can load many smaller cartridge to rival something slightly larger. It's not at all difficult to load a .30-'06 to rival some lower-end .300WM's. Have ya'll ever heard of a .38 Special +p+? It rivals lower end .357's. You didn't mention that the 10mm can be loaded considerably higher than what I listed. You used uncommon loads for the .357 to show how powerful it is and uncommon loads for the .41 to show how much more powerful it is. If you just open an ammunition brochure or a reloading manual and use average loads in all 3 calibers, you'll find that the 10mm is more in the middle. It out classes the .357 and doesn't quite catch up with the .41.
 
And today, you're wrong. Today, there are more factory 10MM guns and factory 10MM ammo than ever before.

OK, due to circumstances beyond my control I haven't been shopping for a few years (since sometime early-2002-ish). As I remember, vaguely:

Remington<---UMC only
Double Tap<---didn't exist
Buffalo Bore<---nope
CorBon<---nope
Winchester<---pricey Silvertips; certainly no WWB or Value Pack
Federal<---pricey Hydra-Shok, lead red box not for G20
PMC<---nope
S&B<---nope
Fiocchi<---maybe, no LGS stocked it and I don't remember big online dealers either
Hornady<---pricey XTP
Black Hills<---I'm pretty sure no
Georgia Arms<---no LGS stocked it
CCI<---aluminum Blazers, pricey Gold Dots
Wolf<---nope

Bullet weight was 180 or 200 grain (plus the "oddball" 175 Silvertip); practice ammo was different in weight/velocity than premium JHP so of limited use. Handloading was the only way to go to get compatible practice ammo. Thankfully, the variety has increased (but I'd still love to see a 100-round Value Pack). :D

An increase in factory 10mm guns?
Dan Wesson has two 5" and one 4.5", so I'd count that as a generous two overall since it's the same frame, net +1 (or 2)
EAA still has full-size metal frame, compact metal, compact poly = 3 = same
Glock fullsize, compact = 2 = same
A bunch of manufacturers discontinued 10mm. (- lots)
CCUs don't count, nor do conversions, so else is new? I see no wheelguns, no new carbines (OlyArms 10mm was made of unobtanium but it was cataloged back then).
Kimber: slow site, a 5" 1911 is a 5" 1911 so at least +1.
Beretta? Walther? SiG? H&K? nope...

...but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised. :)
 
However, if we use the Taylor factor for comparing calibers, it kind of evens out the playing field.

Weight in grains x velocity in FPS x diameter in 1000's of an inch /7000=TKF


Oh, PAAAALEASE!!!! Chuck Taylor's drivel is right up there with UFO research. :rolleyes: It's a very weak attempt by a mathematically challenged gun writer to attempt to make the .45 auto look ballistically superior with made up arithmetic, can hardly class it as algebra. :rolleyes: It is simply a momentum thing, which is great at explaining how a bowling pin falls, not much else.


For the most part I'm thinking they don't catch on more due to the widespread popularity of the .357 magnum. Folks that already own a .357 may be reluctant to spend money on a semi-auto that performs in almost exactly the same niche. Folks that like to hunt, but considered the .357 underpowered for their needs, seem to jump to the .44 magnum and beyond and bypass the 10mm and .41 magnums. The 10mm may (continue to) grow steadily as younger shooters looking to fill that niche for the first time opt for the semi-auto platform.

In my own case, being a hunter, I see very little difference in the 720 ft lbs I can get out of a 10mm with 5" barrel and the 785 ft lbs I get out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. And, for hunting, autos are at the bottom of the stack for platforms. First of all, they lack accuracy. The Desert Eagle has been claimed to get 4=-6 moa out off a good load in articles I've seen, but no service sized auto I've ever fired, especially a 1911, can do that. Then, there's the problem of mounting a scope. Most serious handgun hunters want a scope out at the outer limits of range, 100 yards for guns like the .44 magnum in a good, accurate revolver. Revolvers are more accurate, have better triggers, are safer to carry afield, can easily be mounted with a scope (especially the various hunter models like the super redhawk). While I have taken a deer with a Ruger 6.5" Blackhawk with irons, my favorite hunting handgun is a Contender with .30-30 12" hunter barrel and 2x scope. There is no place for "firepower" in a hunting stand. One shot is enough. Why would I NEED an autoloader afield????? That one well placed shot is what it takes. It don't matter how fast you can fire it. If you miss that deer with the first shot, all you're going to see is a white flag and that's going to be well over 100 yards before you can trigger a second, trust me!:rolleyes: I sense there are few deer hunters among us here.

Autoloaders are great for self defense, but they are out of their element in the hunting stand regardless of chambering. I think that is why the 10 hasn't caught on as an outdoor round, the platform, not the round. The .41 mag is vastly superior, too. You can get energies well up over 1000 ft lbs with a 6.5" .41, rivals a .44. You ain't gonna buy 'em at walmart, will take an evening at the reloading bench, but that's what hunters do, serious hunters that wish to optimize their equipment. I don't look upon a cartridge for what I can buy from the factory, but for its potential as a reload. The .41 magnum shines when viewed this way. My .45 colt pushes a 300 grain bullet nearly 1200 fps out of a 7" barrel. That's my favorite revolver round. I wouldn't really care for .45 colt if I were limited to factory loads, especially considering the price of the stuff.

The 10mm is limited by the fact that it is chambered in an autoloader. You just can't push it as hot as if it were in a strong single action. Again, autos are not for the outdoors. They have serious limitations in such use, both in accuracy and potential power. I can understand using one as a defensive weapon in black bear country, but not as a hunting gun. A shot at a charging bear is going to be quick and you might get to trigger off a couple of quick, accurate shots if you're lucky. It's going to be at short enough range such that the limited accuracy of the auto won't be that much a factor. Still, give me my Blackhawk.

I don't have anything against the 10mm, just trying to explain my point of view as an outdoorsman since I don't think many of the 10mm guys here have actually hunted by the sounds of it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top