12 ga not a death ray...(Bad experience with vicious dog)

Status
Not open for further replies.

copaup

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Messages
217
Location
Memphis TN
I debated posting about this, but I think perhaps a lesson can be learned from it. If inappropriate, Mods please delete. Weapon used was an 870 loaded with Federal 00 "tactical" buck.

I was put in the unfortunate position recently of having to shoot a charging stray pit bull that had been trying to maul some neighborhood children and attacked us when we made the scene. This was by far the most aggressive animal I have ever seen and was actually trying to tear through a screen door to get at the occupants inside when we first arrived. The first round was fired downward at the dog at a range of about 10ft (so the background was the ground), with 2 very quick follow up shots, the last of which was nearly straight down between my feet. This shot broke the dogs foreleg and it broke off the attack and ran under a nearby carport. The dog made a second attempt to attack and a fourth and final round was fired from a distance of about 6 feet, striking the animal in the right shoulder. I've made hits on game animals and coyote in the same place and fully expected the shot to pass through the shoulder and into the vitals in the chest. I was disappointed.

The shot stopped the dog, nearly removing the foreleg, but the animal simply laid down and licked it wounds. The animal was still alive and aggressive an hour later when animal control finally loaded it up to take it to the vet to be put down. A finishing shot was impossible for a variety of reasons after it became apparent that the 4th wound was not going to prove rapidly fatal.

Granted, the first 3 shots were very quick, at a rapidly moving target intent on removing part of my body I'm fond of, and most of the pellets struck the legs and flank, but all 3 rounds at least hit the dog and it not only did not stop its charge until the leg was broken, but it then launched a second charge on 3 legs. The 4th shot struck the dog directly on the shoulder but the shot apparently did not penetrate the heavy muscle into the chest cavity and resulted in a very ugly, incapacitating, but not (rapidly) lethal wound.

This dog was a freak of nature, and so intent on mayhem that I think you could have hit it with a truck and it would not notice for a bit. I have seen a few muscled up 2 legged monsters on various drugs that are every bit as hyped up and 4 times this dogs weight. NO weapon, including the mighty 12 ga shotgun, can be 100% effective in stopping a target on the first solid hit. Expect the first shot to fail and reapply as needed.
 
A very good lesson, and thank you for sharing. Creation can be wonderous, even in its fury. Anger, adrenaline, an attack instinct gone haywire, and the transition to survival instinct after being wounded are surely a power that is amazing in its destructive capability.

I commend you for a job well done. You acted under pressure, and did what was necessary to stop the threat. It may not have gone down ideally, but you got the job done.
 
copaup,
Thanks for posting, I do understand your reservations in doing so.
You did what you had to do , and none of us were present.

Lessons Indeed!

You learned a a lot and a person would be wise to read and read again what you have to share.

-Critters do not "know" they are supposed to react a certain way when shot.

For sure they do not know the "racking of a shotgun " is supposed to scare them, that a 12 gauge is not to be challenged, a buckshot load, and in this case a load with "tactical" in the name is supposed to stop a threat immediate.

-Variables.
Too many variable to say "this" will always give "that" result in life.

This is why I am personally fed up with the armchair macho BS and folks buying stuff based on marketing hype.

Life ain't always gonna do what a internet post/ myth says, what box of ammo says, some mfg says if one bolts on curb feelers and fuzzy dice and post pics on Internet.

In my book, you did what you had to do, and some valuable lessons learned.
I know you did.
I understand all this, so I did.

Now the rest of this bunch I hope does.

Then again I am sure in less than 5 posts someone will post how you used the wrong gun, wrong load, and should of had a whiz-bang-gee-whiz something.
 
I'm not surprised at all.

I've spent some time around pit bulls, having known a breeder, and actually had a litter born in my backyard while a friend was living with me. I like pit bulls, if they're raised right and not bred and raised by dogfighters for fighting.

Anyway, I'm not surprised a shotgun didn't stop one. They're strong and thick and can be quite determined. After all, its chief ancestor was the bulldog - bred to fight bulls. They have a high tolerance for pain from what I've seen.

The one that littered in the backyard was every bit the lap dog if your lap was big enough. OTOH, one of her favorite games was to bite the end of a 4-foot 2 by 4 let you hold the other end and swing her in circles. This was a LOT of work flying this dog around and around.
Her other favorite activity was jumping up on a limb 4 feet off the ground and trying to climb the tree after squirrels.

John
 
:what:

I'm glad you're in one piece...! Terriers are, as a rule, tough little critters, even the small ones. A Jack Russell might not take off your, um, important parts, since he can't reach them, but he can make a mess of your ankle and calf if he wishes. I have two Irish terriers, who have known from day one in our house that I am the alpha female and that they are to keep their chompers to themselves. But pits are, sadly, all too often bred for supersize, super muscle, and super aggression, and it sounds like you met up with one like that.

Thanks for posting this. It is true that often the 12 gauge is talked about as if it will kill anything on earth...it's good that we got a reality check.

Springmom
 
The 4th shot struck the dog directly on the shoulder but the shot apparently did not penetrate the heavy muscle into the chest cavity and resulted in a very ugly, incapacitating, but not (rapidly) lethal wound.
I've shot enough critters and done my own penetration tests with buckshot to not be surprised by this result whatsoever. It doesn't get through heavy bone and muscle reliably.

I've pretty much abandoned buckshot in favor of slugs for my farm gun although do keep some #4 buckshot around in case I have to shoot a small animal.

NO weapon, including the mighty 12 ga shotgun, can be 100% effective in stopping a target on the first solid hit. Expect the first shot to fail and reapply as needed.
Definitely wise words worth remembering.
 
Never read of labs doing this, which is why I don't have pitbulls.

Pitbulls CAN be nice dogs IF cared for properly. Labs are nice dogs, almost exclusively, except in cases of extreme abuse.

I do not like pitbulls for many of the reasons stated here, and with a baby on the way, I'm also glad there are none in my neighborhood.

I have seen the warm and fuzzy ones and champion those with the patience and determination to make them as such. However, they are inherently aggressive by nature, and if left to their own neglected devices, which I see all to often, they are not so warm and fuzzy and can be problematic. I've seen too many cases where their agressive behavior causes issues. Unfortunately, they have to suffer for the poor care of their owners, not vice versa.
 
Pitbulls is the type of dog you need to train to be civil.

Most other domestic dogs you have to train to be mean if you're so incline.
 
I'd heard that pitbulls are very gentle by nature, because they were bred that way so trainers could get in there and train them. And if you look at the frequency of which other breeds attack people there might be something to it. Perhaps it's just that bull breeds are dumb and very single minded, so when they get mad they get really mad for a long time.

Plus they seem to have flatulence problems.
 
Now you know why I have no problem shooting an unattended Staffordshire Terrier,,,,,,,

Next time you are faced with such a dilemma, consider sticking a couple low recoil tactical slugs in amongst the buckshot.
You will have far better results.
 
Thank you for the posting. I've argued since day 1 (of owning a shotgun) that birdshot is useless for defensive purposes. If even buckshot was marginally effective in this case, I shudder to think what some fudd loaded with birdshot would of (not) accomplished.
 
Yup Low recoil Tactical slugs! Preferably Remington. They are butter soft 1000fps .73 caliber pistol bullets and flatten out but have about 18" penetration in flesh and bone. LAPD Metro and many other dept.s have gone to that slug. You have to be responsible for EVERY pellet. Easier for one pellet that get's er done!
 
Dogs are Tough Animals

My Aunt and Uncle owned a kennel and used to have a guard dog service where they would rent out guard dogs. They would drop off the dog as the business was closing and pick them up in the morning or after a weekend. I saw first hand what highly motivated GSD can do. One of my Uncle’s GSDs was at a local jewelry store when a burglar broke in a few hours after being dropped off. This dog was shot 5 times with a 38spl, most of which were at point blank range, and still almost killed the robber. Someone heard the shots and called the police who showed up at my house looking for my uncle, who was having dinner with us. Long story short, my Dad and I went to go get the dog with my uncle. The dog spent 3 hours on the operating table and lived. The robber, while he lived, required over 100 stitches and a few staples and a few metal rods to put the bones back together in his right arm, which he never has been able to use fully ever since. The doctors said that he would have died from his wounds (bleed out) in less than 20 minutes.

So, yeah an angry dog full of adrenaline can be quite the formidable opponent. Mainly, I think, that a dog (or any other animal) doesn’t know that it should just lie down after being shot.
 
Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience. There are people here who really need to understand that a 12 gauge shotgun is in fact not a 'death ray' as is so widely believed. The shooter still has to get hits in vital areas, and the projectiles still have to penetrate deeply enough to reach those vitals in order to be effective.

Racking a pumpgun will not cause flowers to stop blooming, birds to stop singing, tides to cease flowing, the earth to spin off its axis or bad guys to cease antisocial behavior either, but you wouldn't believe that reading lots of gunboards. Dispelling dangerous myths is good business- thanks for doing your share.

lpl/nc
 
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but are slugs realy the answer to this question? The point of a shotgun is multiple projectiles increase the total probability of getting a quality hit on the target, which is especially helpful if the target is moving. This was apparently the situation, and apparently what happened. The third shot "...broke the dogs foreleg and it broke off the attack and ran under a nearby carport." The threat wasn't ended, but it was definitely mitigated by the three shots of buck. And assuming the shots were aimed at the dog's COM, these were all highly probable misses with a single projectile. Not making a statement as to copaup's markmanship, it was a highly difficult set of shots under a great deal of pressure, and he did make the shots with enough accuracy for the tool he was using, but that's my point/question. Maybe a slug does penetrate better/makes a bigger wound, but in this dynamic situation, do you really want to trade off the better hit percentage/less lethality per projectile load for an all or nothing/higher lethality load?
 
The thing with dogs is that they have great compensatory mechanisms when it comes to shock and blood loss. They are able go on as if nothing happened and carry on a fight regardless of injury until they pretty much bleed out. Plus they don't have the psychological mind **** of "Hey, I've just been shot!" and then run off. I would suspect the pit bull just responded to being shot as meeting aggression with more aggression. I've had two small to medium sized dogs make a false charge at me, my wife, my sister and my daughter while we were in my front yard. I didn't have my G26 with me as I usually do. They stopped dead in their tracks when I yelled "get out of here! I'm the one who pisses on the trees in this yard, not you!". I'm glad it worked.

Flip.
 
How many of you guys have ever shot a deer with a shotgun slug?
Did it seize up and fall down dead right there and then?
I had it happen,,,,once,
The rest of the deer I had to track a bit, anything from twenty feet to one grueling half mile, 'I give up let's get Mike's four wheeler', before I located the animal.
This is using a twelve guage with everything from Foster type slugs in a smoothbore to my current rifled barrel and Winchester Partition Gold Sabots.
I have heard of people doing well in states that allow buckshot but most of the stories involve tracking the animal down.
A 'death ray', well maybe, the deer are all dead and consumed or resting in my freezer.
'Hammer of Thor', uh-uh.
 
Good posting. Having grown up on a farm I'm well familiar with the difference that intellegence plays in the effectiveness of guns.

Humans - Oh $#*&$, I've been shot! I'd better stop and get help or I might die!

Animals - Something stung me but I don't see what done it... oh well, back to the mauling!

Unless you make that "golden" DRT hit on an animal then you need to KEEP SHOOTING!
 
Crazy story

I didn't know pitbulls were that tough.

Perhaps instead of low recoil buckshot, or slugs maybe go with a 3 inch mag buckshot if you can handle the recoil.
 
I was a ranch foreman on a large (9000 acre) ranch in big sur Calif, in the 70's. I patrolled with my jeep and shot non pet dogs, the hippies used to let go feral. I used a 12ga pump with buck, but after not getting any instant kills after several dozen tries, I went to a 30-30 rifle- BINGO!
 
Let's not get into another "pit bulls=bad" argument when the OP is addressing the reality of shotgun use.

A friend of mine was a trauma hospital surgical technician. He was also a shooter and a self defense advocate as well as a hunter. During discussions of shooting survival, at least to the operating table, he never failed to remind us that while the shotgun was far more lethal than most other firearms (he mostly saw pistol and shotgun wounds and not very many rifle), that there was no 100% guaranteed dead-right-there round/weapon since they saved enough organic shotgun targets to convice him that noting was a sure thing.
 
That reminds me, I had a cat when the pit bull lived with me for 8 months. This isn't my picture, but it reflects my experience.

p2.jpg


My other favorite dog was a buddy's American Bull Terrier - what a baby. A huge baby, but gentle.

John
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top