12 ga not a death ray...(Bad experience with vicious dog)

[copaup]

It is in fact the reduced recoil load. We have to make allowances for recoil shy officers.

Incidentally, a shotgun fired in a semi enclosed space is REALLY loud. I barely heard the first three shots as they were fired, and certainly didn't notice recoil, but the sound of the final shot reflecting out of the car port sounded like artillery. I was amused when the nice elderly couple that lived there came out and offered me a Coke while I stood and watched the wounded dog until animal control could take it away. To see them you'd think they had people shooting shotguns in their yard every day. Of course, in that neighborhood, maybe they do.

 

[CWL]

If my beagle ever goes feral, I guarantee that any load of shot from a 12ga will put him down...OTOH my rescued border collie will fight until her last breath to protect me and mine.

Dogs won't think about injuries when instincts and duty kick in.

 

[748]

"We have to make allowances for recoil shy officers"
No recoil shy ness here, 90% of my shot shells are 3''. Most of those are 3'' 00 buck or slugs.
I would never trust my life to reduced recoil any thing.
As for the pelets not spreading out quickly, my next shot gun is going to be a sawed off with a 14'' barrel. I'm not sure if I want the pistol grip or the full stock. I'll try both and see what works.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Long ago I had to shoot a feral dog that was after one of our foals. Distance was about 10 yards, POI was centered low on the neck from dead ahead.

I used a slug. The GS cross flipped over and shook as it lay for about a minute.

Best guess, dog weighed less than 70 lbs and was emeciated.

 

[stolivar]

Lucky, the pitt bull is the number one attacking dog. It is also the number one dog that kills. read the stats for yourself. I have carried mail for over 26 years and the pittbull is the biggest and meanest problem carriers have.

steve

 

[sm]

Thread Nudge

Back on Topic please.

Original Post is about a real world situation using a 12 gauge shotgun.

Lessons to be learned and shared about using firearms, to stop immediate threats.
Strategy , Tactics, and After Action Report [AAR] - used in proper context in a real life situation.

Not a circle jerk as often posted by Chest Thumpers that just happen to own a shotgun.

Let us NOT get into species of dogs. That has been done to death.

I want this thread to remain open, and I hope like hell some folks read, comprehend, and get something from it.

Please.


Steve

 

[vta33]

copaup's post is the second one by a LEO this past month on THR about how the sound of a gunshot inside of a structure is extremely loud. Brings the point home.

Thanks for sharing the story with us.

 

[junyo]

From my own perspective, I respectfully disagree. At the distances that shotguns are typically used defensively, there isn't much spread anyway so aiming is still important. Individual pellets don't have a lot of power but a group of them are pretty devastating.

My particular use for them is getting multiple hits in the vitals per shot, thus hopefully increasing effectiveness and ending the fight sooner. I see spread as a bad thing that reduces effective range and puts pellets outside the kill zone. I use a full choke because I want a tight pattern at the distances I might be forced to shoot at. That said, this is only my perspective and I don't pretend to represent anyone but myself here.

I think we're viewing the same thing from two different angles. When you say spread is bad, I agree - to a point. Projectiles that don't hit your intended target are at best wasted not helping you end the threat, and at worst traveling to unintended places to become potential liabilities. Understand that I've never advocated the 'you just have to point it' theory of shotgun usage, and my HD Winchester has a short barrel with rifle sights.

However, multiple hits don't mean a lot if the projectiles line up and take the same path, or arrive in essentially a solid mass. You want as much destruction of tissue as possible at the terminal end. Therefore some spread is good. In a perfect world, the pattern is evenly distributed over vital areas, each pellet digging it's own tunnel, with none landing beyond the target's silhouette. But that's perfect world; real world, only hits count, and quality misses are still misses. Against a highly dynamic target, solid hits are extremely hard to come by; I've cursed at enough clay rabbits as they bounded, intact and unscathed, out of my field of fire. And clays don't have a mouth full of teeth, nor are they charging at you. This the other advantage of shotguns, and spread. You can use every bit of whatever spread you can get in that circumstance to help you put some lead on target. A single projectile, or a really tight pattern is an all or nothing proposition; it either connects or it doesn't. A looser pattern that mostly misses is still putting some .30 cal hits on the threat. Not optimal, but better than nothing. The OP actually got a respectable amount of spread; "the final shot had spread only an inch and a half or so". By my math, that's 200% of muzzle diameter, and and better than a 400% increase in terminal target area over a slug, although obviously trading that at the expense of penetration and wound channel size.

I respect copaup's answer; given the option, he would've prefer the chance to make solid, definative hits. I still think he did fine with the buck, and were I in that situation I would probably still prefer it.

 

[CWL]

Hey copaup,

If you had to do this all over again, would you make any changes to your weapon + ammo loadout?

Any more preferable choices based on what a TN Lawman is issued/authorized to use?

We can all conjecture and armchair quarterback, but you were the only one there and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested to see if you would have made any changes.

 

[copaup]

I think that on a softer skinned target, like a human torso, buckshot is the way to go. I like the multiple and distinct wound tracks that buckshot provides, and have seen enough people shot with it to know that if you put it where it needs to go it works very well. I honestly think that against an average human target the reduced tactical load works very well, provided the range is short and there is no barrier that must be penetrated.
Where I find buckshot lacking, after giving this incident a lot of thought over the last week, is against targets that are protected by a barrier of some sort, be it cover, armour, or thick hide and muscle, or targets that will not respond the the psychological aspects of the mythical "stopping power". I am concerned that the reduced recoil buck MAY not provide the consistent penetration for reliable CNS hits beyond very close range. I suppose the only point I am trying to make is that in the real world any weapon you can carry on your person short of a rocket launcher can not be counted on to be 100% effective after 1 or even 2 solid hits. Do not expect your opponent to go down immediately, even if you can see the rounds hitting. If your opponent does go down, don't expect him to stay there. Keep shooting until they stop. Keep covering until you are sure the threat is stopped.

I really don't want this to turn into a debate about breeds. I've come across good and bad examples of most of them. I am however relieved that no one has yet offered up the "feed the dog your non gun arm and fend it off with baton strikes" nonsense that some oversensitive type brought up at inservice a couple of years back. Shooting should always be the last resort, but in the words of Tuco "When its time to shoot, shoot!"

 

[Deanimator]

Pitbulls CAN be nice dogs IF cared for properly. Labs are nice dogs, almost exclusively, except in cases of extreme abuse.

Misbehavior by the owner IS often the proximate cause of dog problems.

Back in college in the '70s, a guy in the dorm where I used to live had a big black lab named "Grover". Grover appeared by nature to be a fairly amiable dog... or would have been if his owner hadn't been in the habit of feeding him LSD.

When Grover was tripping, he could walk up to you and lick your hand, walk around the corner, come back and try to KILL you, all in the space of ten seconds.

Strangely, this was the cause of considerable turmoil in the immediate vicinity. He chased several people, myself included. He chased a friend of mine who'd been mauled by a dog as a child. Larry then returned to his room, in the process collecting a .36 Navy replica, a .58 Zouave replica and a sabre. He then went [without success] Grover hunting. In the meantime, others called Animal Control. They sent a small woman out with what amounted to a length of clothesline to tie around Grover's collar. Per SOP, Grover walked up, sniffed her hand, went away for a few moments and returned to kill her. Having more sense than bravery, she punted, leaving Grover en situ.

We complained to the school, who talked to the owner. He swore that Grover was just the sweetest natured dog. The Dean of Student Life told him to get the dog off campus, which he professed to do. He could not explain the presence of a dog dish in the hallway. Maybe he was dating Rosie O'Donnell.

In any case, the owner was told in no uncertain terms that if Grover bit anybody, Grover would would get shot, and that his prospects weren't too good either. Grover disappeared permanently.

As I said, Grover probably would have been a good dog were it not for the abuse inflicted upon him by his master.

Of course that was also the year when giving PEOPLE acid without telling them was in vogue. I kind of put a crimp in that when I casually mentioned that if somebody gave ME acid without my permission (which they'd never get) that my first order of business would be to procure my Ithaca riotgun, shoot the parties responsible and then claim I was on drugs, regardless of my actual state of mind. That seemed to take the fun out of that activity. The same people gave my best friend's cat acid. He discovered this when he noticed it attempting to jump into a tree and missing by about two feet. I talked him out of getting his Remington 1100. I told him to instead give them a "talking to" during which I would be discretely out of sight with my Ithaca in case they wouldn't listen to reason and got aggressive. They said they didn't have ANYTHING to do with it... and would never do it again...

In all too many occasions, the real "animals" walk on two legs...

 

[berettashotgun]

Lesson learned:
A: There is a reason folks use Pits' for hog hunting. They are very strong and tenacious. Animals to be respected, like horses,cows and the like. Any animal can be a pet, good (or bad), had a horse once that tried to literally kill anyone but me (he loved me and was a great pet for me!) and is now glue or dogfood- don't know which. Don't care. Most any human is infinitely more important, 'cept maybe Rosie, than ANY animal.

B: Caliber/gauge has no meaning if the vitals or nerve system isn't tagged. 'Nuff said.

C: You did good, sorry about the crappy part of the job.Working parades is always better than that, but that is not always possible.

 

[copaup]

cwl,
If it was up to me I'd do away with the reduced recoil load. There isn't enough difference to notice and I'd rather have the extra velocity. If we had to have reduced recoil I'd rather have one of the 8 pellet loads at full velocity. The shotgun is definately the right tool for this job though. I think fluffy would have gotten a piece of me if I had engaged him with my Sig. We don't get trained on fast moving small targets charging us, and let me tell you, they are a lot harder to hit than you'd think. Under the circumstances I consider those 3 fast peripheral hits the best shots I've ever made. They weren't pretty or precise, but they hit the animal and I kept all my parts attached.
If I had to do it again, I don't know if I would do anything different. My regret over the incident is due to the suffering of the animal and I wish I could have killed it cleanly, but at the time I thought the wound was fatal. By the time it became apparent otherwise another shot was prohibited as the threat was over. I kept hoping the dog would get up again so I could justify finishing it off quickly rather than it suffering for hours just to be put down as soon as it got to the animal control office. I've replayed the incident in my head countless times and have concluded that I did as well as I could within the confines of policy.

 

[Onmilo]

Back on topic.
I have not yet shot any living creature with low recoil buckshot loads that I can remember.
I have shot falling steel plates with the stuff and they fall over just as quickly as when I shoot them with standard 9 pellet 00 buckshot loads and the low recoil stuff is a lot more pleasant to shoot under Match conditions.
If low recoil is all I have handy in a defense situation I would not hesitate to use it though I really like Winchester XX Magnum 2 3/4" 12 pellet 00 copperplated buckshot, recoil is unpleasant but the stuff is devastating to 30 yards and that is about as far as I am going to push a riot type shotgun, past that maximum I will grab a .308 or .223

A good friend of mine used to hunt coyote with me years ago and his weapon of choice was a Winchester 97 pumpgun 30" Winchester tight full choke.
His choice of ammunition was 1 1/2 ounce lead BB 2,3/4" Magnums.

I know a coyote isn't as thick skinned as a Bull terrier but he limited his shooting to 40 yards or so and most of the dogs he hit went down fairly quickly.
He and that shotgun were remarkable examples of skill and the right equiptment because he could consistantly hit those coyote in the head and neck area and that full choke pattern from that old gun was simply amazing.

 

[Fred Fuller]

copaup,

Thanks again for your frankness in sharing this incident with us. It means a lot that you are willing to do so at the risk of subjecting yourself to the kind of unthinking abuse that can so often mark this kind of thread. I am glad to see some of the members here taking some good lessons away from your experience. And I'm glad it didn't turn out any worse for you than it was. Coming come at the end of a shift with an intact epidermis is definitely a good thing.

If it was up to me I'd do away with the reduced recoil load.

That's pretty much the same thing Louis Awerbuck told my shotgun class last summer. I don't use RR anything anymore and settled for 8-pellet Hornady TAP 00 (red hull) at 1600 FPS. It gives great patterns too. I hope you can make some headway getting your department to change their issue ammo, perhaps your experience in this incident might help in that regard.

We don't get trained on fast moving small targets charging us, and let me tell you, they are a lot harder to hit than you'd think. Under the circumstances I consider those 3 fast peripheral hits the best shots I've ever made. They weren't pretty or precise, but they hit the animal and I kept all my parts attached.

No doubt you did a lot better under the circumstances than a lot of folks would have, especially those who are always 100-10X with their keyboards 8^). Amazing what a hefty adrenaline jolt does to fine motor control, isn't it? FWIW coming from me, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of whatsoever, you did fine.

My regret over the incident is due to the suffering of the animal...

That's the biggest indication to me that your priorities are in order.

I've replayed the incident in my head countless times and have concluded that I did as well as I could within the confines of policy.

You did fine. I hope that telling about this incident here might help you in such a way that will keep it from bothering you as much. Thanks again for sharing the lessons learned. The worthwhile ones always seem to come at a price.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[unreal45]

Back on topic.
A good firm "NO" is the best way to stop a dog (short of lethal force) since they have been conditioned since birth to stop what they are doing when they hear the command "NO". Craig Boddington wrote a good article ,on the poor performance of buckshot, that was featured in the best of G&A / times.

 

[Mike U.]

sm,

About your first post in this thread. It took 8 posts.

And I now see what you've been soapboxing about in regard to people who own shotguns.
Notes taken.
Lessons learned.

 

[bg226]

sm,

Thank you for your intelligent and sensible posts. You keep the bar raised.

 

[Glenn Kelley]

Two experiences to relate.

Two weeks ago my friend watched a s/sgt instruct a young patrol officer on how to use a shotgun so that he could put down a deer in the back yard.Buckshot at 15 yards to centre mass,the young man did OK,good thing it was a deer not a pit bull.

Three years ago another friend and I called a coyote into our turkey decoy.At 20 yard the coyote took a load of 4s head on.Knocked it over and it jumped up and ran about 150 yards and then walked into the woods without a look back.Jim fired as well whether he hit it I don't know.

It was the first time hunting with my semi-auto,Jim says that I tried to rack it.
I had used it several times for doubles and never done that .

 

[Titan6]

No surprises here. I have never been a big fan of any kind of shot over slugs for any applicantion other than birds and clays in my bird guns. Reduced recoil certainly did not help either.

Copaup- One thing I am curious about is why does your department prohibit the humane killing of wounded animals? If you were to come across a deer or a hog that had been hit by car but was still alive would you be expected to let it lie there wounded and dying? This is no critique of you but your department's policy.

 

[Blue .45]

To be honest, I don't think I could've hit the dog with anything else besides buckshot, in that situation. My brother had a pitt bull, so I know how quick and elusive they can be. I think you did well under the circumstances.

Do not expect your opponent to go down immediately, even if you can see the rounds hitting. If your opponent does go down, don't expect him to stay there. Keep shooting until they stop. Keep covering until you are sure the threat is stopped.

Well said.

 

[Avenger29]

I am curious as to why you did not finish off the animal and end its suffering? Was it departmental policy?

I just know that the last time I shot a dog I had to use a .22 and I kept putting rounds until it was dead. It can take over 25 rounds to kill a 40 pound dog.

God, that still haunts me.

 

[Loucks]

Does anyone have an educated opinion as to what would constitute a better "aggressive dog" round? Would a 77/75gr .223 outperform the buckshot used by the original poster?

I ask not because I'm interested in executing dogs (I love dogs, although my apartment isn't large enough for one. ), but because my weapon fund is smaller than I'd prefer, and I wouldn't mind building an AR-15.

 

[copaup]

Department policy only allows deadly force to be used against an animal if it presents an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or a third party. We have to consider the risk of injury or property damage to third parties first, the threat of the animal weighed against that risk, and to attempt to kill the dog humanely third. I thought the final wound was mortal, and the dog initially laid down and gave every sign that it was going to die quickly. I've made that same shot on coyote and feral dogs before I moved to Memphis, and they usually dropped quickly and stayed down. By the time I realized it was not, and the animal started showing signs of increased activity the immediate threat was over and supervisors had already made the scene. Shooting charging pit bull trying to eat you=good. Touching off a round in an urban neighborhood to finish off a wounded and immobile dog with a large crowd of pedestrians and brass starting to show up=days off without pay. We are specifically prohibited from mercy killings as it has been decided the risk of ricochets (or just bad shots period) outweighs the suffering of the animal while animal control is dispatched to the scene. I really wanted that dog to make one more heroic effort and stand up. I could have then justified a brain shot from a couple of feet away and ended it. I hate to watch an animal suffer, and in a way I had tremendous respect for this dog, but I'm not willing to get days off and an administrative summons over it by shooting a dog that is laying there licking its wounds and growling, but unable to stand. We treat animal shootings just like people shootings except I went back to work afterwards and finished my shift instead of being put on administrative leave. The same people investigate it, I had to be interviewed by our internal affairs shoot team and crime scene came out for photos of everything. I know a lot of rural departments that put down wounded deer etc. as a routine part of doing business. Memphis is a strange city, but it is still fairly urban and the population, especially in my patrol area, tends to live very close together. You really don't want the police running around and throwing lead about unless we really need to.

Sometimes policy actually makes sense, even if I don't agree with it. Could I have made that shot safely, absolutely. I had a safe backstop, enough cover to get close safely, and an immobile target. But if the policy left enough discretion to the officer to use deadly force to finish off the animal in my situation, then it would be stretched to the limit in other situations where the background was less clear, or an officer would take a "safe" shot to finish the wounded but now not threatening animal and a freak ricochet would occur and find little 9 yr old Susie in the crowd that showed up to watch the police. Its just not worth the risk involved.

In the immortal words of GI Joe, now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

 

[Steve C]

You can't kill anything without hitting a vital spot, doesn't matter what you shoot 'em with. If you want them dead right away if pretty much has to be a CNS hit. Animals don't have the "gee wiz, I've been shot" syndrome that a human has which often makes a man "stop". They can still chew on you while bleeding to death.

If a dog is coming at you or facing you aim for the nose. I've seen dogs shot this way and it only takes one round from a .22 rifle. They simply collapse like an empty gunny sack. From the side I'd still have been aiming for a head shot.