12 ga not a death ray...(Bad experience with vicious dog)

[TCB in TN]

Regardless of weapon, (unless you are talking HE) shot placement is key. Having shot several different animals with 00 buck over the years I can say that shots to the extremities usually don't do it. COM is where it is at. As has been pointed out above, the shotty gives you an excellent balance between the "imaginary" knock down power, and accuracy.

 

[bg226]

This is not surprising.

Buckshot is a poor penetrator.

 

[ball3006]

My neighbor's pit bull and rotwiler...

WILL run very fast when I rack the bolt of my AK. I really don't want to shoot them but have shot between the feet of the pit bull. Because of these dogs are running loose all the time, we never go anywhere unarmed when at camp........chris3

 

[kellyj00]

why can't people control their animals? Especially vicious ones...

When our Papillion (he weighs in at 5 lbs, it's a toy dog) gets out we both chase him around for an hour or so, worried the whole time he's going to get run over.

I have absolutely no patience for loose dogs. Anything that doesn't look friendly gets an immediate call to the police, any animal that will come to me when I kneel gets a ride home...done that twice now. Both times it was well worth it, nice families who didn't even know their dog escaped.

If you breed dogs as predators for boar hunting or something of that nature, please treat them like loaded weapons and out of the reach of the general public. I'm sure most of them are gentle animals and wouldn't hurt anyone, but I won't ever take the chance of turning my back if I have my CCW...and I know I'd feel pretty bad if someone shot my dog.

 

[General Geoff]

Shotgun was still the best tool for the job. If you had been using a pistol, you might not be here to tell the tail.


Nothing's a guaranteed one-shot stop, but that's why we have repeating firearms.

 

[ArmedBear]

The bulldog was originally bred for bull-baiting.

Bulldogs were specifically bred to ignore even the worst mortal wounds, and keep charging at the bull no matter what. And they did.

This trait has been retained by various dog breeds and bloodlines, for various reasons, including dogfighting, cattle handling, etc.

This is the trait you ran up against.

It does not necessarily correlate with aggression or "viciousness". Staffordshire Bull Terriers (a variant of the same lines) are very good with children, because they don't care if the kids poke them in the eyes repeatedly. They simply don't respond to pain. Many ethically-bred and ethically-raised American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers are also good with children for the same reason. They just don't care what you do to them. Most of the dogs are amazingly affectionate, too.

The danger arises when dogs are bred (or sometimes brutally abused) in order to combine tenacity and ambivalence to pain with human aggression. In a registered purebred dog, this is rare to nonexistent. ADBA breed standards specifically reject dogs that show any human aggression.

However, a truly human-aggressive dog, with the athleticism and the tenacity of an APBT, is dangerous.

 

[copaup]

A few quick points.

Sadly, I have to use what I am issued, so its the Tactical 00 or nothing. I am qualified to carry slugs, but policy dictates when they can be used and their use on animals is prohibited. Don't ask me why, I didn't make the policy.

At the range I was shooting there was very little spread. Certainly the final shot had spread only an inch and a half or so. I'd have traded that spread for more penetration gladly.

The dog was told to "SIT!" very firmly when it made a first charge. It responded by stopping for a split second and then coming around a car I had tried to place between us and making a second charge. It ignored the second command to sit. As for my marksmanship I can only say that with 50-60 lbs of angy teeth and muscle coming at my tender parts at high speed I may have gotten a bit excited and led the dog too much. I wanted head and spine and I got legs and flanks. Remember, I had to shoot downward so as not to hit houses, cars, bystanders etc.

Finally, I have nothing against pits as a breed. Well bred pits show little aggression towards people but need to be socialized towards other dogs. My own dog is a 125lb mix of Rottweiller, hound, and pony. She's also a huge baby and once assumed a belly up submissive posture towards a neighborhood beagle.

 

[unreal45]

Having lived with game breed APBTs my entire life I disagree with some other members who obviously no less about the breed. Here is my lap dog.




A link to a pic of a Pit bull starting to eat a child warning graphic http://www.pbreporter.com/images/slap1.jpg

 

[Chuck R.]

How many of you guys have ever shot a deer with a shotgun slug?
Did it seize up and fall down dead right there and then?
I had it happen,,,,once,
The rest of the deer I had to track a bit, anything from twenty feet to one grueling half mile, 'I give up let's get Mike's four wheeler', before I located the animal.
This is using a twelve guage with everything from Foster type slugs in a smoothbore to my current rifled barrel and Winchester Partition Gold Sabots.
I have heard of people doing well in states that allow buckshot but most of the stories involve tracking the animal down.
A 'death ray', well maybe, the deer are all dead and consumed or resting in my freezer.
'Hammer of Thor', uh-uh.

Agreed, I’ve killed plenty of big game and am no longer surprised by how far an animal will go when well hit.

I’ve only had two animals “drop in their tracks” an 8 point whitetail buck spine shot and a 5x4 bull elk that was neck shot, everything else either jumped a ways or ran some. Have to hit the CNS for anything immediate.

There was an excellent article in Infantry Magazine a few months back dealing with small arms lethality. It said that one of the reasons for complaints they received from soldiers on small arms effectiveness was due to poor “expectation management”. Troops had qualified on pop-up ranges, seen shootings in Hollywood productions and expected one shot kills. It just doesn’t happen that way in real life.

Chuck

 

[New_geezer]

I've seen plenty of loving pitbulls living happily with a mix of dogs and other animals. Whatever I need to know about a specific pitbull I can usually learn by sizing up their owner. It is IMO, unfortunate the largest percentage of people inclined to own a pitbull are not interested in the breed's gentler qualities. And for that reason, unfortunately, most people would be justified in shooting first and asking questions later in any potential confrontation with a pitbull. Not that there was any question in this case. I apologize to the many, many responsible pitbull owners, I don't mean to lump you in with the mob of idiots who've given the breed it's bad public image. Again, unfortunately, you have your work cut out for you in changing perceptions.

FWIW - I've read that most attacking dogs will go for any part of the target which is thrust at them. With this in mind, hold the 12 ga out in front, pointed down, wait until the dog engages the muzzle, then fire. It may not always kill the dog but would disable the most dangerous part. I've only read of this tactic being used by some police departments and have no other proof. It may not be useful in this or other situations and definitely would take some nerve to let an aggressive dog get close enough to execute. But I can see how the idea makes sense.

 

[foghornl]

As much as it bothers me, I have lost a couple of deer. One I hit solidly in the 'boiler room' with a 12-Ga Foster 1-oz slug from about 25 Yds, dead square side shot. Lots of 'frothy' blood, indicating lung hits. Buck ran about 30 Yds to the river. Last sight was a blood pool at the waters edge. First one I lost was my fault, waaay too far away for the 20-Ga #3 Buck.

Point well taken...Animals do NOT know that they are supposed to fall over, DRT, when shot once. Shoot until the threat STOPS.

 

[Onmilo]

I want to clarify that I also in no way hate or despise pit bull or Staffordshire Terrier dogs.
They are dogs, like any other dog.

The problem with unattended pit bulls is they naturally and instictively resort to their inbred and aggressive nature.
The dog cannot help or control this, it is bred into the animal.

I have heard too many people say my pit bull is wonderful and would never do that or act like that who then readily admit they have never tested the dog to see what it may actually do when left outside unattended and uncontrolled.

My neighbors pit is a really sweet and gentle dog when the owners have her in attendance and under control.
She occasionally gets out and begins running loose on the property she becomes very aggressive and unapproachable and quite unpredictable.
I have seen the dog run down and kill a cat, squirrels, and a bird for no reason other than the thrill of the kill, she doesn't eat them.
Even my neighbor himself has some trouble getting her calmed down enough so that he may get a leash on her and get her back to the house.

By the way this dog has never out and out ever attacked a human being but her behavior makes me think she would if she felt in any way threatened.
My same neighbors Doberman on the other hand did attack and bite the water meter lady when she strolled into the yard unannounced and startled him.
It pays to read the "Beware of Dogs" sign I guess.

 

[unreal45]

Prey drive is different than aggression towards humans.
Leaving dogs unattended and uncontrolled is the fault of the owner and is irresponsible regardless of the dogs breed. When the liberals are done telling us we cant own pit bulls which breed will be next. Reminds me of the way they attack guns starting with hi cap semi autos. A gun is a gun. A dog is a dog. It is my right to own either if I choose.

 

[ArmedBear]

why can't people control their animals? Especially vicious ones...

When our Papillion (he weighs in at 5 lbs, it's a toy dog) gets out we both chase him around for an hour or so, worried the whole time he's going to get run over.

Why can't people look in the mirror?

 

[unreal45]

nice catch Neil

 

[JohnBT]

"When the liberals are done telling us we cant own pit bulls which breed will be next."

I vote for teenagers.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's a very good lesson. The shot loaded scattergun is probably the single most overrated firearm out there. They're not bad at close range with slugs, but shot is an inherently primitive and ineffecient protectile. It has a terrible BC and SD. Which means it doesn't keep its power up well over space or through objects. I'd much rather have a .44 Mag levergun.

 

[captainamerica]

This story sends chills up my spine. My wife and son are outside a lot and also take walks with a whole neighborhood full of dogs (virtually all are supposedly tied up or fenced in). She carries a .380 and I've often said it's just minimum caliber for aggressive human attackers but never really considered dogs, let alone the beefiness of pit bulls and the like.

I went to a friends last winter and his 3 pit bulls were massive. I had a .380 and a 2" .357 so I felt very comfortable, to a point. But if those 3 suckers came at us I had no idea what else to do other than use my weapons like belly guns (shove it in their gut and pull the trigger as many times as necessary). Which appears to me to be the only thing we could do if a dog got on someone anyway.

Then there's the recent stories I've heard about aggressive bobcats and coyotes and wild pack dogs in the woods. Or the occasional cougar story. Yes, this story sends chills up my spine.

 

[unreal45]

As a LEO for a city that decided to ban pit bulls, am staffs, bull terriers, and other bull breeds I had the unenviable job of telling people that their dog that had done nothing wrong was a vicious animal and that they had to get rid of it.
There are some things I hate about this job.

 

[DawgFvr]

hmmm, I may have to rethink low recoil 00 Buckshot for home defense now. Might just have to stick with regular ol' Federal 00 Buck.

 

[Coronach]

Why? Do you plan on being home-invaded by a pit bull?

Seriously, you're learning the wrong lesson here. The OP shot a pit bull- a heavily muscled, hide-covered, thick-boned, aggressive beast- and shot it several times in non-incapacitating areas. He then shot it a final time in an area that can and did incapacitate the dog. From this, you're gathering that the load used would be ineffective against thin-skinned, lightly muscled, thin-boned humans. This does not compute.

Upgrading from "low recoil" to full power loads might be a good idea, but its status as good or bad has nothing to do with this incident. What I take from this, unless I am misreading it, is that once the OP got a solid hit, even with RR 00, the dog stopped right there. That's still a good performance for the 00, in my opinion.

That said, the obvious lesson is that the 12g is not, as was said, a death ray. You still have to hit. You still have to hit important stuff. And, even then, it might not kill. It might not even stop, but that's the way I'd bet.

BTW, the OP seems to have done a good job. It's amazingly hard to hit a charging dog. The last dog shoot I saw involved 3 rounds of Federal RR 00 buckshot being fired in about 1 second. Range was 30' and closing, FAST! The dog was hit by multiple pellets, not sure how many times, but was not hit in a vital area. The coup de grace was a administered at a range of about 5', by a .40 S&W Federal HST round, through the throat, fired by a second officer.

He drank for free that week.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

PS And yes, I will agree. Buckshot is a close-range proposition, ONLY. The shot can and will lose effectiveness rapidly as range increases. I agree that the shotgun is overrated by some people, but the reality is that, at close range, it is still a brutal, brutal force.

Mike

 

[Plink]

I've avoided the various tactical buckshot loads for that very reason. The tradeoff in reduced effectiveness just to gain a bit less recoil isn't worth it. I prefer to just learn to deal with the recoil. For someone of average size or larger, it's not hard to learn.

To the OP: I understand you don't have any choice but use the tactical buckshot that is issued to you, but for those of us who have the choice, sometimes it's wiser to use a hunting load.

Your post also shows how important shot placement is. Peripheral shots aren't nearly as effective, but the shot that hit the shoulder should have been more effective than it was. You're right that shotguns aren't the instant death lasers that a lot of folks play them up to be. They're a pretty good compromise in most cases though and I'm glad you got out of the situation unharmed.

The point of a shotgun is multiple projectiles increase the total probability of getting a quality hit on the target

From my own perspective, I respectfully disagree. At the distances that shotguns are typically used defensively, there isn't much spread anyway so aiming is still important. Individual pellets don't have a lot of power but a group of them are pretty devastating.

My particular use for them is getting multiple hits in the vitals per shot, thus hopefully increasing effectiveness and ending the fight sooner. I see spread as a bad thing that reduces effective range and puts pellets outside the kill zone. I use a full choke because I want a tight pattern at the distances I might be forced to shoot at. That said, this is only my perspective and I don't pretend to represent anyone but myself here.

 

[bg226]

I've avoided the various tactical buckshot loads for that very reason. The tradeoff in reduced effectiveness just to gain a bit less recoil isn't worth it.

Federal Tactical offers full power 00BK as well. Infact, I haven't seen anything about "low-recoil" by the thread OP.

 

[Reddbecca]

My shotgun's loaded with Winchester Super-X 00 9-pellet buckshot, the kind of stuff you can get at Wal-Mart, $7 for a 15 round box. Full powered hunting quality stuff, unplated but very potent.

And if that's not enough, I've got plenty of slugs too. Winchester Supe-X, 1 0z. rifled hollowpoints. If that won't put down a pitbull or other vicious dog then you've got big problems.