12 ga not a death ray...(Bad experience with vicious dog)

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Copaup, thanks for the detailed answer. I figured it was a departmental policy.

I ask not because I'm interested in executing dogs (I love dogs, although my apartment isn't large enough for one. ), but because my weapon fund is smaller than I'd prefer, and I wouldn't mind building an AR-15.

The good news is that the AR-15 is not a one-caliber only rifle. Simply switching uppers can get you something like .50 Beowulf or 9mm. So you can build the .223 now, and get a new upper later.
 
Avenger29 said:
The good news is that the AR-15 is not a one-caliber only rifle. Simply switching uppers can get you something like .50 Beowulf or 9mm. So you can build the .223 now, and get a new upper later.

And that's an excellent point. It's too bad that I missed the Indy 1500 this month, or I'd head out to buy a stripped receiver in the morning. I guess I'll have to find a good quality mail-order one that the ARFers haven't snapped up. That should be easy. :rolleyes:

Back on topic: I, too, appreciate the clarification, copaup. I'm sorry to hear that you're so constrained by dep't regs, but I do empathize. Thanks for serving. We need more decent LEOs out there.
 
I just know that the last time I shot a dog I had to use a .22 and I kept putting rounds until it was dead. It can take over 25 rounds to kill a 40 pound dog.

Yet people still ask if a .22 is ok for self defense. Any vicious critter, 2 legged or 4 legged can be hard to put down when they're in attack mode. Part of why I always suggest using as much gun as they can control. I'm still a bit surprised that the shotgun wasn't more effective in this situation. But failures to stop have happened with every cartridge out there.
 
+1 on the "it can be surprising what doesn't work" phenomenon.

A friend of mine had taken in a Great Dane that had been abused. Said friend wasn't the brightest bulb on the strand, but he meant well. One day the dog flared up with aggression and started going after everything and everyone in sight, including my friend's kids, wife, and other dog. The Dane just stood in the yard growling at everything that came near and charging when anyone came into sight.

My friend only owned an old pump-action 22LR. 14 shots (all hits!) later the Dane went down. My Old English Sheepdog is an 85lb cuddle machine, but he takes hits running into things that would stagger a man and he just shrugs them off and keeps playing.

A LEO/SWAT member I know mentioned to me that when they enter a drug house he regularly encounters vicious dogs (he apparently carries a shotgun on entries) and he said they often require two hits to do the job.

Dogs and other animals can take a pretty vicious hit before succumbing. Hell, I remember seeing a dove take multible brain hits from a 750fps BB gun (guy was trying to finish it off, and rapidly losing his stomach for it), and it kept fluttering until it was hit in the chest.

As others said, animals don't know enough to be shocked that they've been shot, so they continue their business until they get that big CNS hit or bleed out. Your experience was definitely an eye-opener for you and others. Thanks for posting it.

gp911
 
Yeah, Yeah but I think I mentioned that a decent thru chest hit with a 30-30 150 grain power point KOed every dog I ever decently hit. Compared to many shot with a shot gun from #2 goose drops to buck (not slugs).:rolleyes:
 
This is not surprising.

Buckshot is a poor penetrator.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/

I think it had to do more with shot placement rather than penetration. Also, I'm under the assumption that "tactical" buckshot is low recoil.

Man, I shot some low recoil 00 buck on saturday, and I could tell by the recoil it wouldn't have much penetration compared to the other Winchester regular 00 I shot as well. Although, the low recoil patterned very nicely compared to the regular.


And also, If you can get something like a dog to the ground, you can hold them down. Its just as long as they dont bite or hurt you.
 
Think Breneke, dead dog instantly unless you need close range practice.

To much recoil for the officers what a bunch of whooses.

Our PD only uses them no buck as this way only 1 projectile to deal with. Buck has proven to have bad performance everywhere except when used at very close range 10 yards and under.
 
From under 25ft buckshot it VERY lethal. from the range talked about i just dont believe you can shoot a dog a few times and its not dead. i have shot deer with it and from close range its quite lethal. the insides look like hamburger. from 15ft you will have one big hole in the animal all the way into the boiler room. Piss poor hits with a .458 mag are just that. 3" 000 buck is one mean load from close range. i will take on any pit with it.
 
kgpcr,
I can assure you that the longest shot taken was 10 ft. Not yards, feet. The shot that struck the shoulder and did not go through "into the boiler" was fired from aprox 6 feet. I don't have the report here, but I assure you it was measured to the inch by the crime scene officers. First 3 shots did not hit the vitals. Last round should have punched through the shoulder and didn't. The angle of the shot taken should have traversed through the shoulder and taken out lungs and heart. A slug would have. A pistol round might have. The reduced buckshot did not, instead making an ugly but shallow wound. People who havn't had to use it have an inflated view of the shotguns lethality. It is a superb short range weapon against people, who are thin skinned and frail compared to most animals, but even then it sometimes fails. So do slugs. There are a few people walking around who have taken hits from heavy machine guns and told the tale. Don't believe the hype and expect your weapon of choice to be effective with 1 shot, even if it is a perfectly placed center of mass hit. I took a report on a shooting where a guy took a round of 45 acp between the eyes. He gave me an excellent description of the shooter while they were loading him into the ambulance. He was also a good witness on the stand when the shooter went to trial 2 years later. On the other hand, I've seen people die from what seemed to be minor hits from small caliber weapons. Its like shampoo, rinse and repeat. But I digress.

I too have shot quite a few deer. Deer, like people, are thin skinned and relatively frail creatures. The shot that failed to stop the pit is a shot that I generally aim for when hunting as it tends to wreck the shoulder and at least 1 lung and usually damages arteries feeding the heart. On a heavily muscled, aggressive, and heavy framed animal, the buckshot did not perform well.

I'm not saying what a shotgun might do, will do, can do, or should do in any situation. I am stating what a specific 14 inch Remington 870 loaded with Federal Tactical reduced recoil 9 pellet 00 buck did when fired into an aggressive, pain resistant, heavily muscled animal in mid charge in one specific incident, on one specific day. You are of course free to disregard the event entirely, I don't have a product to sell here. My stance is that in this incident 00 buckshot did not display a level of penetration that I would be satisfied with. I'm not even saying the shotgun wasn't effective. It did after all stop the charge and while the final round did not prove lethal, it did neutralize the threat.
 
kgpcr,

Please remember where you are. This is THR, not the Internet equivalent of the cantina on Mos Eisley ( http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/moseisley/ if you don't get the reference), and you will please behave accordingly.

The man is willing to relate a less than pleasant experience on this forum in order to share the lessons learned in a real-life encounter. Essentially calling him a liar to his face (i just dont believe you can shoot a dog a few times and its not dead) is not a very good way to assure that others who might have life lessons to share with us are willing to make them public here.

He has given you the courtesy of a quiet and considerate reply. You should please remember to do likewise here.

lpl/nc
 
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but are slugs realy the answer to this question? The point of a shotgun is multiple projectiles increase the total probability of getting a quality hit on the target, which is especially helpful if the target is moving. This was apparently the situation, and apparently what happened. The third shot "...broke the dogs foreleg and it broke off the attack and ran under a nearby carport." The threat wasn't ended, but it was definitely mitigated by the three shots of buck. And assuming the shots were aimed at the dog's COM, these were all highly probable misses with a single projectile. Not making a statement as to copaup's markmanship, it was a highly difficult set of shots under a great deal of pressure, and he did make the shots with enough accuracy for the tool he was using, but that's my point/question. Maybe a slug does penetrate better/makes a bigger wound, but in this dynamic situation, do you really want to trade off the better hit percentage/less lethality per projectile load for an all or nothing/higher lethality load?

I think Junyo makes a very valid point here. Slugs while more effective as far as penetration could easily have missed the target all together. All in all, I think the shotgun served its purpose by neutralizing the threat.
 
I have had plenty of "dead" animals that did not get the message that their time had come. The only way to be sure if to keep firing with something that will poke DEEP holes, and don't stop until the medication works.

Me and my brother had a squirrel that we shot four times with shotguns and then tried to finish with a .22, three head shots latter the thing starts running again, it kicked off about 10-15 feet later. After hunting I cleaned it and found about 70+ pieces of shot two broken legs a broken spine and the ribcage was smashed with the organs looking like soup, the head shots with the .22 smashed the skull each time but it still had enough in it to run some more.

"No honest man needs more than ten rounds.... Unless he is trying to do more than wound the attacking animal."
 
I am sorry if i offeded anyone! I just dont put any stock in alot of the stories i am told. I was told by a freind that he put 3 12ga slugs into an 8pt buck from 20 yrd into the area right behind the shoulder, in fact one hit the shoulder and he lost the blood trail after 250yrds. well when we caught up with the deer it had been gut shot 3 times. Not the way it was reported. As for a .45 between the eyes that one again i would have to see. if it went through a wall or what not maybe but not from close range with nothing to slow it down. I am not calling you a liar i would just have to see it to believ it.
 
True story. 1 round struck him in the forehead (actually about an inch above the eyes just right of center) from about 20 yards out. The round, a fmj judging from rounds recovered from the wall of the house, did not penetrate the skull. Instead, it skipped off the skull, neatly ripping a huge flap of scalp away. Bloody like you wouldn't believe. He sure looked dead when we pulled up. Scared the bejezzez out of me when my more seasoned partner (I was pretty green then) walked up to the "dead" guy while I got the paperwork out of the car and when I turned around the "dead" guy was showing my partner where the shooting happened. Plenty of weird stuff happens.

I don't post stories to make myself look good. If I post about my job it is because I feel like there might be a lesson to be learned and shared from the experience. I might kid around when giving opinions about firearms and such, but if you see me posting about actual events I have seen or been involved in on the job, its deadly serious and will be told warts and all.

Back on topic of the original event, the other little aspect about shooting an animal you never think about unless you are involved in it is waiting to hear if you are going to be charged departmentally or criminally for discharging your weapon. In my circumstance, it is pretty clear cut that it was a good shoot, but I'm still waiting to get the letter from the DA and the Director. There is some stress involved.

On my Use of Force Form: Firearm Supplement I made note of the performance of the buckshot. I have a couple of friends at the range and have been dropping my dissatifaction with the reduced load in their ears, but doubt we will change anytime soon. Partly because some officers are afraid of recoil and partly because we have literally tons of the current load on hand.
 
kgpcr,

There are two ways to get experience in life.

You can make all the mistakes yourself, or you can learn from the experiences of other people.

It's a lot less painful to do the latter, believe me. I assure you there are PLENTY of knowledgeable and experienced people here who will not hesitate to politely push the BS button on anything that comes up that reeks of bovine excrement.

Take a little time to learn the ins and outs of this place, and remember that it isn't your sole individual responsibility to ride herd on it just yet. Trail boss Dave McC is perfectly willing and able to do that, and he most assuredly will.

It would be a shame to see a promising new member like you get blasted into digital goo against the "cantina wall", after all. Dave doesn't often issue warnings. It would be extremely prudent to pay attention to the one above. See http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html if you haven't been there already.

I can assure you from my own limited personal experience that bullets- especially round nosed bullets at moderate velocities- will most assuredly perform exactly as described if the strike a human being on the forehead above the brow ridge. That's the thickest part of the skull, it works a bit like a helmet, and I have seen the same thing happen with a different caliber in the field while working as an EMT.

In our case the patient had a bullet hole in the front of the head and a bullet hole in the back of the head, but was conscious and VERY alert. Turned out the projectile (a .22LR) had skated under his scalp and exited at the back of his head. Freaked us out big time, we stayed at the hospital long enough to see his Xrays.

Take a few classes from instructors who supervise students in the process of firing hundreds of thousands or millions of rounds in a year and you might learn some of the odd things that happen after projectiles leave bores. Like the baseball cap bill on a 3-D target that turned a shotgun slug away from its indended point of impact and made it miss clean, told to me in class by one of if not the premier scattergun guru in the world. The object lesson there was to be prepared to shoot again, no matter what. Louis never once had to tell me "Run the bolt, Fred" during the three days of that class, either.

You hang around long enough and you learn things that you might not learn otherwise. Because nobody lives long enough to see it all themselves. Here on THR you might see some joshing or leg pulling among old friends, or you might see things like someone sliiiiightly exaggerate stories about their new gun or their old bird dog. That's it though.

NO ONE here is going to spin BS yarns that are not appropriately challenged, believe me. It isn't going to happen, and you don't have to worry about it. The things that have been related on this thread ring absolutely true, and that is precisely why no moderator or senior member (or a whole gaggle of the above) has dropped rocks on this thread or the OP.

All of us here WANT this place to be the sort of venue where people are willing to tell stories like these for the benefit of ALL of us. We are proud to number among our membership some names that are well known in the firearms field, who are willing to post here precisely BECAUSE of the atmosphere that has been established and cultivated here. There are lots of well known writers and others who have given up on various internet fora simply because they get treated so rudely. And so they don't participate on the open forums any more- they set up their own forums that are private, and the larger community is therefore deprived of their commentary.

That isn't the case here. We intend to keep it that way. And if it means newbies get blown out of the water from time to time for breaking the rules, that's a price that might have to be paid.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc (most certainly not a famous personage even tho I do use a pen name)
 
The regulars here have centuries of accumulated experience and fine tuned BS meters. I rarely have to call anyone on a statement, this BB is nigh self policing.

Weird things happen in Shotgunland. I recall doing a penetration test with a major brand of 00 on wet phone books. After shooting one round, I found a flattened pellet laying near my feet. It seems one pellet somehow bounced back instead of penetrating the paper like the other 8. Still scratching my head on that one.
 
Odd stuff always happens, shotguns are not perfect, most of the time it goes the way it should. And other times its just down right FREAKY!!

And odd things always happen in a panic.
 
copaup,


Again I want to thank you for sharing a real life situation.

Firearms and projectiles do not always do what it is said they will do.

For a bit I worked in the Main OR of a hospital.
We had a guy stick a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth and pull the trigger on a .357 JHP loading and - lived.
Last heard in a Mental Hospital, minus some teeth, part of his tongue, palate, partial blindness...

We did the organ harvest on someone that died when the aorta was nicked by a .22 short.

00 buckshot and the guy was cussing and upset his nice clothes were ruined...

We did not know what all this guy had been shot with. He was cussing, and carrying on too with best recall 14 gun shot wounds. Thank goodness for anesthesia kicking in...
.380, 38spl, 9mm, 45ACP, .357 and we did not know until removed what he was shot with ...
"Did it ever dawn on you to do something like hit the pavement, run, move, anything but stand there? - We asked

He said he did not realize he had been shot until someone yelled at him, he looked down and saw blood.
Tox said he was not drunk or high.
Just really mad and we guess being in a heightened state, did not "react" due to adrenaline high.


I once shot a Gadwall duck 7 times. I mean I hit this thing first shot, and it dropped like a rock from ~ 20 yards.
It hit the water and started swimming.
Now this back in the day of non tox shot, I am using #5 shot. I know what this load does in this shotgun from pattern board and slews of ducks before.

Reseviour , and he is swimming, I am chasing in chest waders and taking shots...with brief "interuptions" of stump holes and one bar ditch...
I ain't missing!
He ain't quitting!

He made it to the bank and finally got him to stop!
My buds laughing themselves silly with this "show".

I snatched that duck and hauled butt as it was 20* F, I was wet, got more wet busting ice to cross the creek and went down again...and I needed to get the truck and get dry clothes and turn on the heat. I had ice inside the waders...

Lady Game & Fish sees me undressing outside the truck and comes over...yeah this funny as well...

That duck had pellets! I/we had to see this stubborn trash duck. I mean good hits, including head ( I won't go into detail).

No guarantee, no Holy Grail, no absolutes...
 
This story doesn't surprise me. A few years back, a pit bull was running through a neighborhood, tore up some old man. Sheriff deputy came out, and the dog decided he was next. Took 3 rounds of 00 buck to kill the dog. The animal control officer who arrived later told me the dog was a friggen mess. I remember being amazed.
 
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