125 grain .357 mag loads.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

I've examined this phenomenon at great length. My conclusion is that all guns will cut at the top strap until the heat (from the cutting) actually tempers the steel to where there is no more cutting.

That's not to say the forcing cone is immune. However, I talked to a Smith and Wesson factory representative, in California, about the forcing cone problem. He said there were some K frame 357s with the problem. But that they belonged to the LAPD. He further said that the LAPDs problem guns were their training revolvers which were used to fire tens of thousands of rounds, if not more, in a relatively short period of time.

I challenge anyone to put that many rounds through their guns. I've got four K-frame Smiths and they haven't seen nearly that much activity.

I.e., shoot your gun(s) without fear. Unless you double charge a load, or fire a round behind a squib, you're not going to hurt your gun.

 

[Confederate]

What about the S&W stainless steel J frame model 60?

I don't have any experience with the model 60, but again, Smith & Wesson warns against the use of light magnum bullet loads. Not only do they subject the gun to the flames and gas cutting, they give the gun a violent jolt. The model 60 is designed to take the buffeting of full magnum loads but the question is, for how long?

Even if I had a model 66, I'd carry and use 125gr JHPs because of their undisputed power to put down bad guys. I'd carry such loads in the 60, too, especially on the road and at road stops. At home I'd use light-weight bullets in +P. A restricted diet of the magnum 125gr JHP won't destroy your gun, but you should try it just to get a feel for it, then use +Ps for practice. After all, why push your luck?

Having a Security-Six stainless, it's nice not having to worry about it. The Smith 19/66 is a .38 that was altered to shoot .357s. The Ruger, coming in at about the same size and weight, was designed to be a .357. Unfortunately, the 19/66's reputation wore off on it and otherwise knowledgable gun pundits were warning those with Security-Sixes to not shoot too many magnum loads through them. So when Smith tooled up to make a larger, beefier, gun, Ruger followed suit and gave people a heavier gun that was a brilliant solution to Smith & Wesson's problem, not Ruger's. I love the GP100, but it's a better range gun than it is a trail or carry gun. Ruger would do well to issue a more lightweight .357, but I'm not crazy about the GP100's stem-like grip. The Security-Six's full frame gun was perfect for my taste.

I talked to a Smith and Wesson factory representative, in California, about the forcing cone problem. He said there were some K frame 357s with the problem. But that they belonged to the LAPD. He further said that the LAPDs problem guns were their training revolvers which were used to fire tens of thousands of rounds, if not more, in a relatively short period of time.

According to NRA associate technical editor C.E. Harris: "Of course, many shooters get a thrill out of firing full magnum loads and will plink with them for the sheer enjoyment of it. Heavy-fram .357 revolvers such as the S&W Model 28, Colt Python, and the Rugers seem to stand up fine to this treatment, but I wore out a S&W 19 by pouring thousands of full .357 loads through it. It would require retiming about every 1,500 rounds. Police armorers who service the K-frames tell me that's about par when shooting .357s. My Ruger [Security-Sixes] aren't as smooth as my old S&W, but have digested several thousand hot rounds, each without requiring any repairs. A friend has put over 8,000 rounds through his Security-Six, as a police firearms instructor, with no parts replacement." (American Rifleman, May 1979)

I had a good friend who also was a police/airport security and civilian firearms instructor back in the '70s. When he saw what full magnum rounds did to the K-frames of his students, he switched to using his stainless Security-Six for instruction and limited his beloved 66 to .38 rounds. Soon it vanished from his shooting table and spent most of its time in the dark coolness of his safe. About the only time it saw much daylight was when I showed up and asked to either shoot it or handle it. He had a blued 19 with a snubby barrel that had been shot loose and had a worn forcing cone which he showed to his civilian students (mostly women). Most of them had never heard the name Ruger and were more inclined to a name they'd heard of. So he steered them to Rugers.

 

[Miamitiger]

Thanks again Confederate!!!

I wish that everybody in this forum would be as helpful and knowledgible as you are

 

[.38 Special]

Smith & Wesson warns against the use of light magnum bullet loads.

I've heard a lot of talk about this over the years but the one thing I have never seen is an actual cite. Linky?

 

[Confederate]

I found this by doing a quick Google search:

Q: What .357 Ammo Can I Use in a Smith & Wesson Model 19?

A: The gun is sought after because it is simply the finest .357 Magnum ever made. Actually, according to it's creator, Bill Jordan, it's a ".38 that can occasionally fire .357." He envisioned a gun police could carry often and shoot little. ".38s for practice and .357s for business." The model 19 is, in my not-so-humble-opinion, the best balance of power, practicality and handling anyone's ever seen. Medium frame: easy to carry, handles and points like a dream. Powerful Caliber: drops badguys DEAD, with the option of soft-shooting .38 Special.

The Model 19, or "Combat Magnum" as it was originally called, was the Gold Standard for police sidearms from it's introduction in 1955 until the "wundernine" revolution of the 1980s. Accurate, powerful and ergonomically perfect. What more could you ask for? If you keep your ratio of Specials to Magnums about 9:1, or one Magnum for every nine Specials, you'll be OK. The gun, while tough, won't take a steady diet of Magnum ammo. In particular the 125gr stuff. Only shoot 158 grain .357 ammo in this gun!!! That's straight from Smith & Wesson's mouth.

The gun was designed when the only magnum load available was the 158gr load. The 125gr load that appeared in the '70s was hotter than the 158gr load. Modern ammo is loaded to roughly: 158gr @ 1250 fps 125gr @1450 fps; Older ammo was hotter: imagine 158grains at 1450 fps!!! Modern ammo is downloaded for liability reasons.

The lighter bullet causes a few things to happen.

1: It accelerates faster in the cylinder, striking the forcing cone MUCH harder than the 158gr bullet. Look at your forcing cone, you'll notice it's cut-out at the 6 o'clock position to allow the ejector rod to clear. As the gun recoils back, the bullet strikes the forcing cone at this 6 o'clock position and causes erosion and cracking over time. Your accuracy will go to hell and you need a new barrel.

2: the shorter 125gr bullet leaves the case before a 158gr bullet, casusing more unburned powder to fly forward and combust in the throat and barrel. This causes flamecutting on the topstrap and peening of the forcing cone. Again, very bad.

3: The recoil impulse of the 125gr loads are much sharper and severe than a comparable 158gr load, so it batters the gun HARD.

4: To be honest, the 125gr load is the most common out there, but it is not the best load. It is light and fast and while it expands violently, it tends to underpenetrate. The 158gr expands and has enough momentum to smash through and hit vitals. If you want to shoot lots of 125gr loads, get an L-frame or even better, an N-frame. Smith & Wesson started seeing lots of K-frame magnums in for warranty work in the '70s due to shooting 125gr ammo and issued an advisory to not do it.

 

[.38 Special]

Yeah, I've seen that sort of thing many times. But I've still never seen anything from S&W about not using bullets lighter than 158. Eventually I kind of got the feeling that this might be an internet myth. Could always be wrong though.

 

[Warren]

Wow. Great thread everybody.

Thanks for all the information.

 

[rkh]

Does the same hold true for 110 grain WWB loads?

 

[SoCalShooter]

My S&W 19k works great with 125gr loads and I have not noticed any damage to the forcing cone. But I do load for 158gr for hunting.

 

[dvnv]

I have worn out a Ruger Blackhawk with warm/hot 125 gr loads and H110. The top strap cutting is clearly visible but, IMO, not an issue. The forcing cone, however, is worn out. I don't know exactly how many shots it took, but an educated guess puts it around 15-20K before I started noticing issues. My solution was to buy another Blackhawk and plan on replacing the barrel or turning it down and recutting the forcing cone on the old one (if that can be done). I still use the same 125 gr load and won't worry about abusing the new one...the repair doesn't amount to much considering the time and expense it takes to wear one out.
I do have a FA that is showing some forcing cone wear and that concerns me more...but I started in the "velocity kills" era and am having a hard time convincing myself to go heavy and slow.

Shoot your 1000 rds of 125s...shouldn't cause any problems based on my experience. dvnv

 

[Gary A]

rkh asked, "Does the same hold true for 110 grain WWB loads?"

I have often asked the same thing without getting a clear answer. I cannot see that a 110 grain loaded to a nominal 1295 fps from a 4 inch barrel can hit the forcing cone nearly as hard as a 125 at a nominal 1450, or even a 158 loaded to a nominal 1235 fps. A 110 loaded to 1500 fps would be another animal altogether and I can see how Cor-Bon 110s might be suspect in this regard. I can see, however, that the smaller bullet could allow more hot gases to pass by than the heavier 158s might allow. That would be the only problem to them I can envision based upon the little I know. Most 110s are not loaded any hotter than a plus P 9mm and I don't hear people saying that 940s or 547s or Ruger SP101s in 9mm are damaged by hot 115 grain loads. (Maybe they are but I don't read about it.)

 

[Confederate]

My S&W 19k works great with 125gr loads and I have not noticed any damage to the forcing cone. But I do load for 158gr for hunting.

It's not like you're going to notice it with light shooting -- I mean, let's not make too much out of this. Just about any gun will take moderate amounts of shooting, but fatigued steel looks just like regular steel, so one would not be able to tell even if you were shooting too much. The first real sign you'll get, normally, are rounding of the edges. After that, a crack in the 6 o'clock portion of the cone. But again, it takes quite a bit of shooting before these things happen.

My solution was to buy another Blackhawk and plan on replacing the barrel or turning it down and recutting the forcing cone on the old one

Turning it down and recutting it will not be a good long term solution because the steel is still fatigued. The gases leech out crucial elements of the steel and make it brittle. So you'll have a new forcing cone made of brittle steel.

 

[JohnKSa]

Anyway, Ruger will probably replace the barrel at no charge if you send them the gun.

I've got a GP100 with maybe 2-3K of 125gr Federal JHP .357Mag loads through it. There's some topstrap cutting visible. That's it.

 

[dvnv]

"Turning it down and recutting it will not be a good long term solution because the steel is still fatigued. The gases leech out crucial elements of the steel and make it brittle. So you'll have a new forcing cone made of brittle steel."

Then a new barrel it will be...

 

[Colonel Plink]

I have a friend who shot full-house magnums (normally 158-gr) in his model 19 for a couple of years. It split the forcing cone and ruined the cylinder.

My Model 28, however is as old as I am (no spring chicken) and just has some minor evidence of flame cutting on the top strap. The State Trooper I bought it from put thousands and thousands of rounds through it. I've put another two or three thousand through it, mostly full house 125 and 158-grainers. If it's current condition is any indication, I'll die before the ol' S&W wears out.
Since I bought a Ruger SBH, though, I have relegated the 28 to target practice. I can get my recoil therapy from the .44 Magnum.

My point?

start hand loading.
It's fun and therapeutic, can eventually save you some dinero and most importantly, you can shoot mild loads all day long.

 

[Warren]

Just added a GP100* to the collection. Beautiful gun. Smooth trigger and the other parts are tight where they need to be.



















*after the 10 day wait of course.