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12ga HD Shotgun Solution for Small-Framed Woman

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by roo_ster, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2003
    Messages:
    3,091
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    USA
    A while back my wife voiced interest in a home defense long gun. Tried several options: lever-action carbine, AR15, Mossberg not-a-SBS with not-a-stock, and 12ga shotgun. The 12ga was what she liked best, given her wing-shooting experience.

    So, I found a way to get my wife into a 12ga, despite her small size and light weight.

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    LINKS

    https://www.nokick.com/KynShot_Remington_870_Buffer_Adapter_Kit_p/kyn-sk5100r.htm
    https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-carbine-stock-mil-spec
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AU6EPQO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    https://www.remington.com/shop/870-Express-12-Gauge-Super-Magnum-Synthetic-Forend,-Black/p/F108125
    https://www.riflestock.com/store/product/universal-picatinny-rail/
    https://www.streamlight.com/en/products/detail/index/tlr-1-hl
    https://www.federalpremium.com/prod...ense-shotshell-with-flitecontrol-wad/pd132-00
    https://www.cabelas.com/product/Herters-reg-Target-Shotshells-Per-Case/1545677.uts

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    Taking the lessons we learned at the range and my own experience, I built up a used 12ga Remington 870 Police Magnum I bought locally for ~$300 OTD.

    The item of greatest cost after the used Rem 870 was the Kynshot Hydraulic Shotgun Buffer & Adapter Kit - Remington.

    It consists of a Mesa Tactical Aluminum stock adapter and a KynSHOT hydraulic shock absorber (in the shape of a mil-spec AR-15 buffer tube). This is a serious piece of hardware, especially the Mesa Tactical portion. Solid and machined and fits like a glove. This is no plastic fantastic tacticool add-on crapware. I'll let you read up on it, but, essentially, it moderates/lengthens the felt recoil. The hydraulic bits have three settings, depending on if the load you are using is lower or higher recoil, so you can dial in the best ammo/hydraulic dampening combo.

    It works, and works better than the Knoxx/Blackhawk products. I have shot most of those and keep an old Cop Stock folder around for when I buy another used Rem 870. Greatest difference is cheek slap. As in, much reduced or isn't there. Also, the Mesa/Kynshot kit is just more solid.

    With a Limbsaver recoil pad and Magpul MOE stock, we can get LOP down to 12", which is what my wife needs.

    I had the stock as part of a LPK I have not gotten around to using. The Limbsaver pad really helps. I have one on another Rem 870 with a conventional stock. Good pads.

    Went to a local gun store and bought a bog-standard AR-15 pistol grip for something like $2.50.

    One thing I noticed at the range was that my wife had to reach a bit far forward to work the pump. Most the tactical/home defense/police forends are shorter than those found on wingshooting shotguns. Supposedly so a policeman can lock up his shotgun inside his cruiser just north of the receiver. Or so the forend clears ammo sidesaddles. Well, our bedroom is not configured as a cop car and we wanted as light & handy & pointable shotgun as possible. So the short forend is of no use. On the other hand, 4"-6" less distance to reach the forend to operate the pump is of real value to my wife. I have since replaced the old police/tactical forestock with a wingshooting fore stock with skateboard tape where my wife ought to hold it.

    The light is an old 100 lumen Streamlight TL-1 I have had for more than 10 years. What a great bit of kit. Don't even have to say, "for the money." I don't think they make the 100 lumen variant anymore, but they produce an 800 lumen variant for about what I paid 10 years ago.

    I found a solution for the light mount that does not bung up my wife's hand. Streamlight produces a weapon light mount for the Rem 870.

    Supposedly, the rail portion is to go back over the forearm, but several reviews write that they reverse it, so that it rides under the bbl.

    That last ingredient to a successful HD shotgun for my wife was the ammo. I collected a few candidates: Rem Managed Recoil 00 buck, Federal Personal Defense (reduced recoil, w/ Flite Control Wad) 8 pellet 00 buck, Herters 2 1/2" 6x 00 buck. The best performer was the Federal Personal Defense load. It is a reduced-recoil load (8x 00 buck @ 1145fps) with the Flite Control wad. My wife was fine with the recoil, it hit where she pointed, and at 10 yards the pattern could be covered with a 50-cent piece. Could not be happier with that performance.

    She could dump the entire magazine of 4 shells into the of the silhouette target lickety-split at 10 yards and tore the heart/lung area apart. She aims a little higher than COM to get it in the thoracic cavity. She was a nurse at a level 1 trauma center and has an appreciation for the effectiveness of buckshot in the chest.

    Had her shoot a box more of my son's favorite 12ga load, Herter's low-recoil 1 1/8oz, 7 1/2 shot at 1050fps to see if we could induce some nasty problem. No problem arose. The 870 is heavier than her beloved Beretta A400 28ga, so she would not want to tote it all day, but it should serve for HD.
     
  2. 94045

    94045 Member

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    My Mother has a Remington 1100 LW 20 Ga Youth Model fitted with an 18.5 Barrel. She uses Rio 9-Pellet #1 Buckshot.
     
  3. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Great work, but may I question why she doesn't use her A400 instead, since she is, to my understanding, used to it? Is it because of a reliability issue, or because of an ammo offering less adapted to defensive use, or is it something else completely?
     
  4. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    A400 is 28ga. Not much hd/sd ammo. No short 18 to 20in barrel availble. New bbl costs 800usd retail if want to cut one down.

    All in all just not a reasonable basis for a hd long gun.
     
  5. EMT40SW

    EMT40SW Member

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    A392241F-E23F-4DE0-9ED7-FA9EEE0645CE.jpeg AC3AEA14-966E-448B-A91B-E489FE03231D.jpeg I would suggest a Mossberg 930 or 500 in 20 ga because it’s lighter due to the aluminum reciever. I use two 20ga Mossberg 500s for HD.
     
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

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    A well- thought out solution! :thumbup: Putting a Hogue grip on will help with recoil reduction a little bit more, and they feel better. I have one on my AK, it helps, haven't bothered on my AR's, as felt recoil is nil on those anyway.

    And a handy little item it is; I have one for mine. Unfortunately, they don't make one for the Ithaca 37, which is my HD gun. My 870 is set up for pheasants currently.
     
  7. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    Which Hogue grip would that be?

    Check out Streamlight product 69901 Mag Tube Rail. I use it to attach a TLR-1 to my Ithaca M37 Deer Slayer Police Special, which is what I keep on my side of hte bed for HD. Here it is on Amazon:
    https://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-...kmr1&keywords=streamlight+69901+Mag+Tube+Rail

    61pNbRRLMEL._SL1200_.jpg

    Works for me. Mounts to the mag tube of my DSPS, no muss, no fuss.

    If you don;t have the extended mag tube, Choate produces forends and bits of picatinny rail (Universal Picatinny Rail Kit) that screw into the forend.
    https://www.riflestock.com/store/product/universal-picatinny-rail/
    https://www.riflestock.com/store/product/ithaca-37-forend/
    60-09-23A.jpg

    I have one of these on my Rem 1100 forend and had one on my wife's 870. Works fine for me, but my wife bunged her hand into it, so I went with the other mount.

    Mossberg makes a fine pump shotgun. I hear their "new" 930 semi is a good gun too, but the Mossberg semi-auto I tried as a kid was awful. So no Mossbergs for me after that.

    The problem with 20ga pumps is that they recoil as much or more than 12ga pumps. The 20ga gun is usually lighter, but the 20ga hunting and SD shells deliver a similar payload at a similar velocity. For instance, my son prefers his simple 12ga Rem 870 for wingshooting, as the low recoil Herters shells toss a light load at a lesser velocity, making it recoil less than the 20ga shotguns we tried out.

    And a lighter receiver presents a similar problem. This is not a sporting/hunting gun used to walk the fields.

    Besides, I know the Remington 870 and 1100 like the back of my hand. And Rem 870s are plentiful, cheap, and used Wingmasters & Police guns run slick.
     
    cc-hangfire and entropy like this.
  8. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    SWEET. That is a terrific solution, too. So much better recoil-wise than the 20ga pumps. How is the stock/LOP for her? I could not get my 12ga Rem 1100 to fit my son, as the minimum LOP is around 13+ inches. Maybe the youth model shortens up more.

    I looked for one of those. And for the older 20ga 1100 built on the larger 12ga receiver. Tough to find, sure tougher than used 870s. And the prices are pretty sporty.
     
  9. PzGren

    PzGren Member

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    There are many small women that have learnt shooting a shotgun with standard loads. My niece for instance, is only 5' 1" and weighs around 90 lbs but has learnt to shoot a 12 gauge. The proper technique of holding the gun right, especially pulling it in with the strong hand will help a lot to digest the recoil better.
     
  10. entropy

    entropy Member

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    I grew up shooting Trap with a 4'11",100 lb. gal who shot a Model 12 Trap about as tall as she was. She consistently won Women's division shoots at 16. Never saw her shoot less than 4 rounds a night, (100 shells) and she was there every night they were open, her Dad ran the place. Proper stance is the key. Her Dad taught me also, and that lesson has stuck with me through the years.
     
  11. Keyfer 55

    Keyfer 55 Member

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    #6 dove load will work fine for home use.
     
  12. entropy

    entropy Member

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    And the internet rumor surfaces yet again. No, just no. Ask any big city ER Dr. or nurse why.
     
  13. George P

    George P Member

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    Proper stance with a properly firring gun is what works the best. And just shortening the LOP of the stock does not take into account the other aspects that need to be addressed to make sure the stock fits.
     
  14. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

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    Hmm, last time I fired a weapon at another person, selecting one of the four positions used to qualify wasn't an option. Just saying real life ain't a range. And targets don't shoot back.
     
  15. George P

    George P Member

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    True, so when seconds count, if a long gun doesn't fit her just right, she could easily miss as the adrenaline is pumping through her.
     
  16. EMT40SW

    EMT40SW Member

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    I am a big city EMS Paramedic & Registered Nurse in the ER. Please limit self defense & home defense loads to buckshot & slugs. I took care of a patient on my Ambulance long ago that took an entire load of birdshot between his shoulder blades at no more than 8 feet. He was able run 200 feet home after getting shot & called 911. He is alive simply because the criminal choose birdshot instead of buckshot or slug both of which would have severed his spinal cord & column. Instead he got discharged from the ER 4 hours later. So my question would be do you want to shoot a criminal & they can still continue their attack on your family for 200 feet. For me it’s an easy answer 00 buckshot in my 12 ga & 3 buckshot in my 20 ga. Slugs in the side saddle for rare circumstances.
    Let me expand even further below is a 911 tape of a dog mauling an infant to death. What if your neighbor’s daughter knocks on your door to alert you to this situation. You run outside with a defensive shotgun, what do you want it loaded with? Ammo that is effective against both men & bears or ammo for birds. Warning this clip is
    Tough to listen to:

    https://www.insideedition.com/north...-year-old-dog-attack-harrowing-911-call-48094
     
    Odd Job and Shimitup like this.
  17. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    A few thoughts about ladies and shotguns (yeah I'm not exactly politically correct most days..) from someone involved in police training... In the early 90's my outfit (one hundred sworn - small city in south Florida..) saw the writing on the wall pretty clearly since officers of small stature (ladies...) had a significantly difficult time qualifying with the standard shotgun riot package that was our only step up from handguns (and I won't even mention young officers from urban backgrounds that not only had never fired a shotgun or hunted anything - and would never reach for that popper on the street even it they'd managed to qualify with it once they came out of the academy....). Everyone back then saw the trend away from police shotguns - and in the years since I retired out (1995) most outfits made the switch to police carbines (either 9mm for urban use or .556 or 7.62 for rural conditions). I've always regretted that since nothing beats a shotgun as a close quarters fight ender, period. I'm speaking of ranges under 15 meters with a standard 12 ga. riot gun (four in the tube - one in the chamber for action purposes...).

    I know that there are many women perfectly able to properly use a defensive shotgun - but also many more who might take up one if it was set up properly... In police work we were all about standardization - with no room for custom built anything (unless it was on the officer's initiative and met whatever the standards were at that time...). My hat's off to anyone willing to go the extra mile to make sure that any lady needing a shotgun is properly equipped and trained in their use. I can say that for me - it was always in my hands if I was on a hot call - or any call that might even possibly involve firearms... and mine never let me down - not once...

    You'd think some manufacturer would actually think things through and offer a ladies model riot gun that actually was tailored to their needs (and I'm not talking about a pink gun either... ). Like I said before that 12 ga., properly used... is a fight ender at close quarters...
     
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