Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.
that must be what Spielberg used to slay this beast....
That is a critter if they were around, that would
be a good test of our cartridges,Ed
For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..
Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.
Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..
But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.
Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed
Thank you for keeping this thread going. Very interesting work.
Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,
Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in a 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells it
There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..
Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.
Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.
And speaking of single shots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1. A 585HE....ED
The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.
One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.
They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.
We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.
But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..
For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.
Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed
Sorry to be away so long--Health and money problems.
Here are couple 24ga FHs in break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
585 barrel in it, and a guys NEF he had a 585 barrel monoblocked in.
The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga and 585 Minie Bullets
are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.
Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when
I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind.
That is truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck
garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
got so bad she can't work, nearly invalid. So we fanally had to
quit that, but were and are in debt. We need littlr extra money to try
to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.
As well as needed to pay for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc.
Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into my paypal account as gifts.
And if you want to mail it, use email below to contact me to get you
my mailing address.
The Paypal email is [email protected]
Best Regards- Ed
PS-- I really need help. Not astronomical amounts, but fairly fast.
Just a little from each to help.
We never made anything on the 12ga FH, etc, work and research.
The little coming from sale of our groups buy of 585 brass, dies,
barrels, etc, goes to pay to the places, where the money
is owed, for getting them made..Ed
Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.
Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.
And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.
There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..
Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
And guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy. slug loads..Ed
Although I haven't read every single word in this truly epic thread, what I have read has been quite an education. Thanks for your efforts, Ed, for whatever that's worth. One day I might build/have built for me something along the lines of the various Rifles from Hell featured herein, and you've left something behind, here, for the rest of us... very unselfish of you.
Thanks and we will keep going as long as we can.
We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,
Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.
Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.
We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.
And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels....Ed
Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,
Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around
Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.
The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.
About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed
Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed
More about 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, AR Uppers,
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP.
In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.
Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed
Wow! This has taken a couple days to digest, and I finally had to sign up to ask Ed a few questions. First off your work on this amazes me....well done. I have been playing with SxS 12 gauge smooth bores for a bit, as poor boy double rifles. I have picked up a project and am finally feeling bold enough to un solder the barrels and make it regulate the right way, ......then I saw the 12gauge FH! My main question is on older SxS's, many of these are mono blocks, and have three locking lugs. I'm wondering about replacing the barrels from the mono block with rifled barrels and than regulating. How do you go about determine what these old actions would hold up too? I'm mainly thinking of a solid slug in a hot 3". I'm not man enough to step all the way up to your full size dragon slayer.
Those with three lugs will hold ok if one lug is
a top lug like a Greener top lug. They will take
14,000 psi loads in 3" plastic and 21,000 psi loads
in RMC brass cases. We tested 3" plastic at
14,000 plus that we used in NEFs and got 720 gr close
to 1900 in the NEF. Ed
Got a NEF 12ga at LGS...
What do I look for to find out if this is suitable for 12g FH???
That one is a smooth bore and will work for lower pressure loads.
IE regular factory slug loads made for smooth barrels.
The NEF you want is the 12ga Ultra with the heavy rifled barrel.
Will cost about twice as much. It will come with 3 inch chamber
and we ream out with a regular 3.5" 12ga reamer, and
then load the 3.5" cases with hairy loads.
And we can if we want have RMC make 3.5" brass cases.Ed
A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.
Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.
Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF
On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.
So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed
Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.
Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..
Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed
I like the work you do! keep it going!
Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.
The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.
Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.
We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.
Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed
We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,
Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.
Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.
Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..Ed
12 gauge from hell is a beast. I saw a vid of it evaporating 5 gals of water. Is this something that you could theoretically shoulder fire, without breaking anything?
We fire it from the shoulder ok, and guys all over are doing it.
We were the ones who atomized the 6gal pail of water.Ed
Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.
Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases
Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.Ed
Something something broke into the wrong rec room something something.
Separate names with a comma.