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14" shotgun barrel no stamp?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by samy12386, Oct 12, 2011.

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  1. samy12386

    samy12386 Member

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    came across this while looking for grips for my new mossberg. towards the bottom of the page mixed in with the photos is a statement that by keeping your shotgun's total length above 26 inches you can have a 14" barrel. correct me if i am wrong but i thought overall length didnt matter if you were under 18 on the barrel..... by what this site is claiming they are saying if my mossberg came from the factory with a pistol grip (it did) that i could purchase one of their grips and lower my barrel length to 14 without asking uncle sams permission..... link is posted below what are your thoughts? i am only concerned with the law as far as the NFA goes. Thanks for the input, this forum has helped me with so much advice over the years but this is my first question.


    http://www.shockwavetechnologies.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=50
     
  2. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    I'm pretty sure that it is legal assuming the shotgun was PGO from the factory, as they are transferred as "other" on the 4473, rather than officially as a shotgun.

    I'm not sure how you'd prove to a police officer on the side of the road that you're legal, but in court you would be ok.
     
  3. OldmanFCSA

    OldmanFCSA Member

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    I've always understood the law to be : a minimum of 18" on barrel length, and 26+3/4" on overall length.

    Tell me if I am wrong or out of date with current regulations.
     
  4. Arp32

    Arp32 Member

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    Barrel length + overall length, otherwise why wouldn't <18" barrels be available without a tax stamp?!? If it sounds too good to be true...
     
  5. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    Shotguns not fitted with a buttstock at the the factory arent "shotguns" per the feds so they don't have to abide by the 18" worth of barrel rule, but they DO have to be 26" OAL.
    All this screwy stuff is a consequence of the original intent to make pistols NFA items under GCA '34.

    http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
     
  6. OldmanFCSA

    OldmanFCSA Member

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    Thank you for the update.

    I purchased mine from a Deputy in Southern Indiana when I lived there. It also has no Seril Number on it so must have been made before 1968 regulations came into effect.

    I know it kicks like a "BICH" !!!
     
  7. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    Looking @ Remington, Mossberg, & Winchester's sites quickly, it would seem the only option is Mossberg @ this time, & only in 12 ga. For many years my car gun's been an 870 in 20 ga w/ the 21" Youth bbl - w/ full choke, & an extended mag. This prompts a re-evaluation. Will have to guesstimate the length of the receiver on my 500 when I get home w/ the Pachmayr grip - guessing a new 18" bbl on a new 500 pistol grip could be cut to 16" or so? Then off to Briley for choke tubes...
     
  8. tallpaul

    tallpaul Member

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    I would not trust one letter from the nfa, and an Internet one at that. I was always under the impression for a pistol to be a pistol and not make an AOW the barrel needed to be rifled. I never did understand why no one made a shotty with the pistol grip and a shorter RIFLED barrel, the twist could be weak .

    If you are afraid of NFA paperwork, don't be.... To cheap to do it remember the first hour of a good lawyer costs more than the 200 .oo stamp.

    If ya wanna play the pay to do so! Do it right and save yourself the hassle at the least! Jailtime n bankruptcy at the worst.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2011
  9. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Sam Cade's got it exactly right. If it comes from the factory without a butt-stock, it is NOT a shotgun under federal law, but an "other firearm." (Like a belt-fed semi-auto 1919, or a bare AR-15 receiver.) To be a Shotgun, it must be "designed or redesignd to be fired from the shoulder."

    As an "Other Firearm" the 18" barrel length does not apply, but the 26" overall length rule does. Some combinations of barrel, receiver length, and pistol grip style make it possible to stay over 26" oal, with a barrel noticably shorter than 18."

    IF you want to build one that is less than 26" OAL, it will be considered a smooth-bore handgun and that is a Title II "Any Other Weapon."
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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  11. paul

    paul Member

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    So, legally, I could shave off 3" of bbl on the PGO .410...:D

    I'd lose the front bead, but wouldn't have much use for it anyway...
    Have to add a LASER...

    What about a VFG on it..?

    If'n it's a go, I could see dropping the cash for it, based on cool factor alone!

    p

    http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50455.jpg
     
  12. samy12386

    samy12386 Member

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    A vertical pistol grip would put u in the AOW category. So am I correct to assume that since my mossy came from the factory PGO I can shave my barrel down as long as I stay above 26 overall? And of course don't put a vertical pistol grip.
     
  13. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Not on an "Other Firearm." That only applies to handguns.

    Yes. I'd keep a coply of the ATF letter on that issue with me and be prepared to have to discuss the matter with any local law enforcement officer who happens to take issue. Unlikely perhaps, but possible. This area is poorly understood.

    Not an issue with a PGO shotgun over 26" overall.
     
  14. samy12386

    samy12386 Member

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    does anyone have a link to the mentioned ATF letter? btw thanks for all the quick replys i will be getting to work as soon as that birdshead grip arrives
     
  15. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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  16. samy12386

    samy12386 Member

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    Thank you! last question: what atf form is used to request the info from AFT on the orgins of my mossy. just to make 100% it came PGO
     
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Not possible. That info only exists in Mossberg's records, and in the form 4473 in the filing cabinet of the dealer(s) who sold it.
     
  18. samy12386

    samy12386 Member

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    it was bought brand new at a gun show. all the paper work i have (not a 4473 form) says long gun or shotgun on it. does this mean i am a no go?
     
  19. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    If you use a bird's head grip, you can shave off even more just then you are stuck with that grip or get a new barrel.
     
  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    What paperwork do you have? The owner's manual may or may not be generic enough not to clearly say what you purchased. And manufacturers don't use the term "Other Firearm" anyway.

    The only definitive answer would come from one of two places: 1) the manufacturer's records of what that serial numbered gun was configured as when they shipped it; and 2) the seller's form 4473.

    Now, there are no examples anywhere of someone being forced to prove this one way or another. If your gun was confiscated and/or you were charged with a federal felony, your attorney would simply subpoena those records to prove your case. It seems vanishingly unlikely that the ATF would prosecute on such a case, as their very first investigative step would prove that they'd lose.

    Generally, these oddball technicalities seem only to be brought up in charges when the subject is a "person of interest" in much more serious crimes already and they're simply stacking on everything they can think of.
     
  21. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

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    well that shot gun is an aow if bought unassembled from remington(870) 5 dollar xfer.
    otherwise it's a short barrelled shotgun,200 xfer fee.that gun basically is a wilson arms co witness protection shotgun built for the federal marshalls witness protection program.i have the sbs and aow versions.
    youwill see this shotgun in the beginning scenes of the movie cobra with stallone
     
  22. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    What? WHICH shotgun? This one?

    http://www.shockwavetechnologies.com/catalog/images/RG500.1.jpg

    If you read the text printed on that image, or in this thread, it becomes clear that THAT shotgun is not an NFA item. And assembling one to match it from a factory PGO or from a bare receiver would not be a Title II firearm as the overall length is greater than 26".

    If purchased as a full stocked shotgun and then converted to a 14" barrel, then yes, it would be a Title II SBS.
     
  23. MasterSergeantA

    MasterSergeantA Member

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    I wonder how the length of that compares with the Breachers Grip from Knoxx/Blackhawk.
     
  24. Dead

    Dead Member

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    Would the 26" OAL apply if one would install a <18" RIFLED barrel on a PGO shotgun?
     
  25. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    Sam Cade said:
    Sam is exactly right. Handguns were removed from the bill due to public pressure but all the provisions to keep people from making concealable "handguns" out of long guns stayed in and became law even though they make no sense when you can still buy a handgun. It sounds trivial until you realize that people have gone to prison for this.
     
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