1851 navy 36 caliber for deer and hogs will it be enough?

[rodwha]

yeah I think i'll order another pistol measure just to see!

Were it me I’d get an adjustable rifle measure with a funnel. Useful for any BP arm and the funnel is great to have.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Grains is a unit of weight.

True dat. We speak of a volumetric equivalent of a given weight of black powder. In a post-factual environment it’s always good to encounter a true fact.

ssb73q (AKA Richard) at Colt Country has done some stellar data compilation on various powders.

Quoting ssb:

The weights thrown for different powders using the 30gr spout of the flask:

Black MZ - 23.3gr
Graf Black Powder 3F - 28.2gr
Swiss Black Powder 3F - 24.4gr
Triple 7 3F - 19.2gr
Pyrodex P - 18.2gr


See Some various powder data at that site.

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/in...ml?PHPSESSID=b2f0172d97070b784a63037934d20331

 

[midland man]

Were it me I’d get an adjustable rifle measure with a funnel. Useful for any BP arm and the funnel is great to have.

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...335/product_name/QA1102+Pistol+Powder+Measure here's the one i want to get next as the one i have now dosen't have the funnel...

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

I’d forgotten how shiny they are when new. They’re handy little chaps. The diameter of the one without the funnel is wider than .36 chambers (not Wu-Tang Clan’s - the ones on a Navy) and so are not as convenient for use on the lesser calibers. The funnel is very helpful for filling paper carts, too. It seems that most guys of our persuasion have the larger rifle loading type.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

The link below has some graphic photos of what a .36 would need to penetrate to get at a hog’s vitals. Reminds me of autopsy reports I’ve reviewed. These guys were definitely not using BP pistols. I don’t think I’ll go hog hunting with a Navy, thanks, no.

Boar shoulder shields -

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Wound+Database/Boar+shoulder+shields.html

 

[midland man]

so guys will a walker dragoon do the job??

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Shot placement being everything and if the creek don't rise … I vote - YES.

 

[tbob38]

It's about the same as a 380 ACP. So...…………..

 

[rodwha]

It's about the same as a 380 ACP. So...…………..

That depends on the powder and projectile used.

With a full load of 3F Olde E and a bullet that’s short for caliber (about that of a ball and 100 grns) produces what a .380 does in the compact Colt Police. In a full size chamber that can easily produce .38 Spl +P performance.

 

[tbob38]

Ballistically it's like a .380 ball round, but with an even worse ballistic coefficient.

It had a reputation for being effective in combat, but in no way shape or form is it a good deer or hog round.

I certainly agree with that. That poor ballistic coef. also makes it slow down quickly when it hits tissue, thereby transferring its small energy more quickly.

 

[midland man]

but remember guys people die from 22lr all the time and its way smaller than that 36 caliber ball!

 

[rodwha]

but remember guys people die from 22lr all the time and its way smaller than that 36 caliber ball!

While true this is much more so with a CNS shot. No way would I want a .22 rimfire of any flavor or a .380” ball dealing with a hog. I wouldn’t really want a wide nosed bullet from a .36 cal either, though it may just barely be sufficient. I wouldn’t want barely sufficient for a job like that.

There’s a fellow on another forum who modified a Walker to .36 cal. Might just be getting .357 Mag ballistics from that. I’d still prefer my ROA with a wide flat meplat and 38 grns of 3F Olde E. I prefer bigger holes.

 

[rodwha]

I certainly agree with that. That poor ballistic coef. also makes it slow down quickly when it hits tissue, thereby transferring its small energy more quickly.

I’m not so sure about that. Seems to penetrate just about as much as a FMJ or similar caliber and those don’t just slow down once they hit tissue. Now were it to expand nicely I’d agree.

 

[tbob38]

I’m not so sure about that. Seems to penetrate just about as much as a FMJ or similar caliber and those don’t just slow down once they hit tissue. Now were it to expand nicely I’d agree.

There is an excellent article (Chapter 24, in the book Stopping Power, by Marshall and Sanow) where the author presents results of tests with black powder round ball and conical bullets. He tested in ballistic gel and measured penetration and stretch cavity volume. Get a copy if you can find it. Very interesting read.

 

[rodwha]

There is an excellent article (Chapter 24, in the book Stopping Power, by Marshall and Sanow) where the author presents results of tests with black powder round ball and conical bullets. He tested in ballistic gel and measured penetration and stretch cavity volume. Get a copy if you can find it. Very interesting read.

Does it mentioned the powder(s) used? I wonder how much that plays into it. There’s ballistics gel testing showing the penetration of a ball and without a full charge of powder in a .44 it still penetrates over 20”.

 

[tbob38]

Does it mentioned the powder(s) used? I wonder how much that plays into it. There’s ballistics gel testing showing the penetration of a ball and without a full charge of powder in a .44 it still penetrates over 20”.

They found out that the greater the powder charge, the LESS the penetration. Don't recall the powder used, but they list the velocities of each test. For .44 cal, 756 fps=21.8 in penetration, 840 fps=20.8 in., 1031 fps=19.0 in., 1181fps=18.2 in., and 1287 fps=17.8 in. All 141 gr round ball.

 

[rodwha]

They found out that the greater the powder charge, the LESS the penetration. Don't recall the powder used, but they list the velocities of each test. For .44 cal, 756 fps=21.8 in penetration, 840 fps=20.8 in., 1031 fps=19.0 in., 1181fps=18.2 in., and 1287 fps=17.8 in. All 141 gr round ball.

Interesting. The only thing that seems to make sense would be expansion. I’ve seen conflicting results for expansion of pure lead. Somewhere (a major lead bullet company) claimed 1200 fps (maybe it wasn’t pure?), someone else said around 1000 fps and more recently someone said as low as around 800 fps which seems about what this is showing. I don’t recall the velocities, or if they were even given, for the videos of ballistics gel tests.

From the many experiences of various hunters using a patched ball from a rifle find that the ball often expands quite a bit out to about 75 yds and find it just under the hide and the off side, whereas beyond that it generally gives complete passthroughs and leaves a wound track that suggests no measureable expansion.

Estimating my .50 cal load of 70 grns of 3F T7 or Olde E would put it around 1186 fps at 75 yds and 1064 fps at 100 yds.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Higher velocities must mean more expansion? I have seen tests where a 9mm bullet went further when fired into water, it stayed together whereas a 30.06 bullet only went a quarter as far and basically shattered.

 

[dickydalton]

Higher velocities must mean more expansion? I have seen tests where a 9mm bullet went further when fired into water, it stayed together whereas a 30.06 bullet only went a quarter as far and basically shattered.

Different bullets at different velocities. If you want to hunt bear with your 1851, I say go right ahead. it's a free country.

 

[CraigC]

As to a .357 being marginal for hunting, keep in mind it was developed to blast through a car engine block and heavy sheet metal to stop gangsters in the 30s. I have been told that a 125 grain bullet would not take down a ram silhouette at 200 yards. But being dumb and not knowing any better I did it anyway. Seemed to surprise the fellow shooting a .44 mag next to me that told me that. Go figure.

Yes, that's about as useful as all the nonsense about the .45Colt knocking over horses. As I've repeated many times, we don't have to rely on 150yr old myths and legends. Suffice to say that no handgun round "blasts through" a car's engine block. Not today, not 80yrs ago.

The reason why 200gr bullets are used for silhouettes and not 125's is momentum. Once more confirming that bullet weight is more important than velocity. Whether the critters are steel or flesh & blood.

Again, if a 158-173gr bullet at 1400fps is considered the bare minimum for deer hunting with a cartridge revolver, what is an 80gr swaged lead round ball good for? You guys are arguing back and forth about powder but it's the projectile that makes all the difference.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I stand corrected, the 357 was intended to break a hole in an engine block which it is capable of doing. Are you suggesting that a ,45 Colt won't drop a horse? The Walker will certainly do so, especially if the shooter is alongside the horse. And yes it comes down to what bullet one is using.

 

[CraigC]

How do you know what the .357 will do to an engine block? How do you know what an 1880's .45Colt load will do to a horse? I'd hate to know that I had to kill a critter the size of a horse with a 255gr swaged conical at 900fps.

I'm suggesting that we discard old myths and legends in favor of verifiable fact. I'll take the collective experience of 100yrs of handgun hunting, along with 30yrs of personal experience over that nonsense any day of the week. Myth & legend, theory and wishful thinking don't kill critters. Bullets do and the bullet is everything.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I shot an old Chevy block with a 357 from about 20 yds, it punched through the water jacket and cracked a cylinder. I see you have posted a photo of what seems to be a large buffalo of some sort. Killed with a pistol I imagine. I simply call on my own experience with shooting pistols for well over 40 years as well. I am not going to Africa or any other place to hunt large dangerous game with a pistol. I merely say a hell of a lot of folks underestimate what the pistol is capable of.

 

[CraigC]

An 80gr round ball at 1000fps. I'd say a handful of folks who have never done it OVERestimate its capability.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

An 80gr round ball at 1000fps. I'd say a handful of folks who have never done it OVERestimate its capability.

Everything is relative but for some targets 178 ft/lb muzzle energy is just not enough juice. Wishful thinking won't change ballistic facts.