1911 Carbine Conversion

[Sam1911]

I don't see why it would be a serialized part if Mech Tech made a Ruger mkIII conversion, is there something actually regulating that or is it just by manufacturer?

In the case of the Ruger, the part you'd be replacing (the barreled upper) is the firearm. The grip frame is just a part. If Ruger wants to sell a barreled upper -- THAT is a firearm, just like if they wanted to sell the receiver of a Mini-14 or the grip frame of a GP-100. If any other manufacturer wants to sell a Ruger Mk II style barreled upper, that part would be a firearm as well.

It all comes down to the specific design of the gun and what portion of it the BATFE has accepted as the serialized part. (See below.)

It would be amusing to have a gun made out of no "firearms" as far as the clever boys at the ATF are concerned. It would also be amusing to assemble two serialized "firearms" into one boom-stick ... can I mount my Ruger mkIII upper on a serialized lower somehow?

I think you're missing an important point. Federal law requires a serial number on the "firearm" -- that portion of which will be considered the "heart & soul" of the gun, so to speak. The manufacturer and the BATFE come to some agreement about which part that is. So, no, a gun can't be made for commercial sale that doesn't have some part of it seriliazed as the firearm.

As for constructing a working firearm out of two serialized parts -- yes and no, and yes.

Yes, in that some guns do have the serial number stamped on multiple parts (often european military arms are this way) but that has no bearing on US law. Only the receiver will be considered the "firearm."

No, in that no one is going to make a Ruger Mk II grip frame that is sold as a firearm by itself as such is unneccessary by law and would only add hassle and complexity. It would be like having your car titled with one VIN number and also having the frame of that car titled to you with it's own VIN number as if you owned two cars. (Two registrations, two sets of insurance, etc. )

Yes, in that in the case of NFA-registered machine guns, sometimes this does happen. Drop-in-auto-sears (DIAS) are registered as a firearm under NFA Title II. They are nothing but a small bit of metal, and must be inserted into a Title I rifle in order to work. Two serialized "firearms" working at the same time. Add a Title II registered suppressor to that gun and you could have THREE serial numbers. Odd, perhaps, but not outside the realms of logic.

 

[Beyond_Perfection]

If anyone asks..I never installed it. So I never broke the law....

 

[HKGuns]

Buy an HK UMP, it doesn't look as silly.

 

[GCBurner]

Mech Tech says this in their FAQ:
Q) Do I need an FFL (Federal Firearms License) to purchase this product? A) No. The CCU is not a firearm and will not fire without a pistol lower in place. The CCU is simply an accessory such as a scope or grips. For State and local laws you are advised to become aware of them relative to where you live. As far as Mech-Tech is aware, the CCU in and of itself is legal in all States. We do know that in the case of California the combination of the CCU and a pistol lower becomes illegal under current law. If and when Mech-Tech becomes aware of any other special circumstances such as California, we will publish this information. Again, the customer has the responsibility to determine the legality of the combination in their circumstance.

 

[highorder]

Mech Tech says this in their FAQ:
Q) Do I need an FFL (Federal Firearms License) to purchase this product? A) No. The CCU is not a firearm and will not fire without a pistol lower in place. The CCU is simply an accessory such as a scope or grips. For State and local laws you are advised to become aware of them relative to where you live. As far as Mech-Tech is aware, the CCU in and of itself is legal in all States. We do know that in the case of California the combination of the CCU and a pistol lower becomes illegal under current law. If and when Mech-Tech becomes aware of any other special circumstances such as California, we will publish this information. Again, the customer has the responsibility to determine the legality of the combination in their circumstance.

Yep, I agree with all that.

NONE of it speaks to NFA laws... except that last part. How beautifully obtuse.

 

[GCBurner]

In place of a separate upper, Numrich sells a 16" barrel for the Model 1911, along with a flat wood stock that attaches in place of the mainspring housing on the grip. http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=588350&catid=12245 They have a caution that it's okay to put on the barrel and stock together, or just the barrel by itself, making a long barreled pistol, but NOT to attach the stock by itself, because that would constitute a Short Barreled Rifle under the NFA. I don't recall any mention of not being able to switch back and forth running afoul of the laws.

There were a few people who converted a Walther P-38 into something similar during the heyday of The Man From U.N.C.L.E., trying to duplicate the gun with attachable barrel extension, stock, suppressor, and scope sight used in the TV show.

 

[mcdonl]

If it were me I would just buy a $224 Hi-Point TS series carbine and leave the 1911 alone.... wait... I am me and I DID do that.

 

[Flfiremedic]

Do they make one for GLOCKS? Link?

 

[mcdonl]

Do they make one for GLOCKS? Link?

The OP's link has a link for pricing, the glock is shown there.

 

[Sam1911]

They have a caution that it's okay to put on the barrel and stock together, or just the barrel by itself, making a long barreled pistol, but NOT to attach the stock by itself, because that would constitute a Short Barreled Rifle under the NFA. I don't recall any mention of not being able to switch back and forth running afoul of the laws.

And similarly to MechTech, they're not going to say it is legal, either -- and will politely decline to come to your trial should the ATF decide that you are the man of the hour.

 

[KosmicKrunch]

I have one of the old Taylor conversions. It included a drop in 16 1/4" barrel, the rear grip drop in to attach the stock, the stock and the 50 round magazine drum. I got it back in the 80's. Never used it yet. I think the total cost back then was like $150 or so. I had also bought a series 70 Colt Giv't model to make the change out, just never got around to it. It is tuck away somewhere in the shop somewhere. I should dig it out and complete the change out.

 

[KosmicKrunch]

GC Burner: The Collectors Armory (the company that makes Non firing replicas) made or makes those Man fron Uncle set ups on a P-38. It would shoot special brass with a CAP in the front. It would fire full and semi. I always wondered if the added accessories (stock & brace, scope, fake supressor and barrel (would have to find a real P-38 rifle barrel) would fit a real P-38. That would be a really cool conversion. I actually see the sets on GB in the non-firing replica section quite often.

 

[Paddy]

Dragging up old thread here but just discovered these carbine conversions. All this legal talk about what's a rifle and pistol and is it illegal to convert back makes me wonder why the mfg chose a 16" barrel for the conversion. Wouldn't a 15.9" barrel make all this gray area go away in this case? Then it's pistol back to a pistol. No fuss. Anyway I'd like to play with one. Anyone have one they want to sell for 1911?

 

[USAF_Vet]

When dredging up four year old threads, might want to check to see if the laws changed in that time, which they have.

The law is no longer "once a rifle, always a rifle" but rather "FIRST a rifle, always a rifle." The ruling that once only covered the T/C Contender now applies to all pistols. So a pistol can be converted to a rifle, then back to a pistol.

Your "solution" of putting on a 15.9" barrel is no solution at all, since it would be a pistol converted to a Short Barrel Rifle, which is still covered under NFA '34.

 

[Paddy]

Oh, right, because the rifle stock. I feel like I've bothered you somehow, sorry for that although I'm not sure why you expect me to research nonsensical ATF rules just to dredge up an old thread. Thanks for taking time to reply anyhow.