1911 & CZ75: Dropping the Hammer...Safely

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I've completed a string, it's still hot. I intend to keep it hot.

a) Engage safety
b) Manually decock

I choose to engage the safety then holster. No benefit is derived from holstering in condition 2. The SA trigger is better, the safety is easily manipulated upon draw. An intentionally hot gun is more readily deployable in condition 1 than condition 2.

I'm ready to clear from loaded after a string.

a) Rack slide, lock it back, and discharge live round from pipe
b) Manually decock then, rack slide, lock it back, and discharge live round from pipe???

I choose to simply rack the slide, lock it back and discharge the live round from the pipe while keeping my finger AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER and the muzzle pointed safely down range.

What possible purpose is there for manually decocking that offers a reward greater than the risk for this platform?

Just because "I can"?

To me the manual decock is unnecessary and provides no benefit with THIS PIECE.

No one is saying it is "physically impossible".

It's avoidable and unnecessary to this CZ-75B owner.

Safe shooting (and manually decocking if you must...for whatever reason),

CZ52'
 
CZ52GUY and GRD

CZ52GUY and GRD,

I'd have to agree with you guys on the merits of not decocking a CZ-75B, outside of a safe range enviroment. Although decocking a CZ-75B might be much safer then the typical 1911, a slip while doing so and there is a hole in something.

Decocking this gun outside of a range enviroment on a regular basis seems to me to be an accident waiting to happen, just like any other single action hand gun (revolver or semi-auto) that doesn't have a decocker.

The only advantge I can see to decocking a CZ-75B might be that it could be used as a SSP gun. Of course that could lead to a DQ really quick.

I like my CZ-75Bs (9mm and .40S&W) and I've thought about trying to shoot SSP with them. But I'm worried that I might screw up on one of the 14 times I will need to do this, so I haven't tried.


Just My Thoughts

Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
Of course, there is absolutely no use for a double action trigger on the CZ-75 if one is not going to decock it. And there is a very good reason to decock it. Those of us who do not wish to carry cocked and locked see the use of a double action trigger for the first shot. It was the entire purpose of the pistol to offer both cocked and locked and a double action first shot. The 30-30 argument is paramount, as one does not carry a Winchester, Marlin, Henry, or Rossi with the hammer back ready to fire. The only safety they used to have was a half-cock notch. Many lever guys wish they would go back to only having that as the safety.

It is safe to manually decock. I don't mind those who do not carry with hammer down for the da first shot. Why is it then that some call me unsafe when I lower the hammer in a fashon and deploying a method intended by the manufacturer with a design extremely popular throughout the world produced for the better part of 30 years? :banghead:

There really are more methods of carry than cocked and locked. And, there are plenty of us who, being knowledgeable and competent individuals, choose to carry hammer down, but wish to be able to put a pistol on safe given the right circumstance. Indeed, that is my entire reason for choosing the CZ-75 in the first place.

Ash
 
I guess I'd argue there are better hammer down carry alternatives.

The CZ-75B offers both condition 1 and condition 2 capability, but with condition 2 risks that some (this CZ-75B owner included) do not think outweigh the reward.

The CZ-75B without a mechanical decocker carries with it an element of risk to carrying in condition 2. It's DA trigger is not as good as other hammer down DA/SA pistols.

The CZ-75B does offer you a choice. I argue that it is not a terribly difficult choice and that objective factors point you toward a cocked and locked bias for best results out of this platform.

For those who are considering a CZ-75 series that really prefer condition 2 as default carry method, I'd argue they consider one with a mechanical decocker.

For those already invested with a manual decocking CZ-75 series, I encourage them to carefully consider the safety and performance benefits condition 1 carry offers, as well as the risks and tradeoffs with condition 2.

Safe shooting,

CZ-75B
 
A reason why I sometimes prefer to manually decock: My CZ 97B is my preferred nightstand pistol. Decocked, if I ever have to use it instantly, i.e. woken suddenly, a knife wielding burglar in the bedroom, it's a grab, point, and pull firing procedure, no safety to forget. Or if I am awoken by hearing a noise and wish to investigate, it seems inherently safer to me to have the pistol decocked while I'm groggily groping for it in the dark and have that long stout DA trigger pull help prevent an AD versus the safety lever and a light SA pull being the only impediments.

So I manually decock. It seems perfectly safe to me, and if I'm wrong, I'll only have a hole in the wall or floor to patch because I keep aware of muzzle direction while decocking and always have it pointed in a safe direction. In the (IMO very unlikely) event of an ND, it won't be the end of the world.

Nonq
 
nonquixote, exactly. Those are the same reasons that I keep my gun decocked on a loaded chamber. So far in my life I have never had to use my gun in a defensive manner. I would, however, like to feel safe in the idea that my gun is ready and waiting should the need to arise. Back when I had glasses, there were times that I would get up and forget to put them on. If I can forget my glasses (which made it possible for me to see) then I can just as easily forget that the safety is on in a stressful situation (being awakened in the middle of the night by a burglar seems pretty stressful to me).

If you don't feel safe or comfortable decocking, then don't. If you don't think that those of us that do it is safe, then that's your opinion and you are quite welcome to it. I however am quite comfortable with it and I don't have a problem telling others that it is a viable option.
 
Geeze, who cares? Everyone carry however they want, if you know your gun, your abilities and you're safe, decock however you want.
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Outside of a range environment, an ND from a manual decock error will result in a bullet impacting something other than a thick berm placed there with the intent to absorb said impact. That's a reason for reasonable concern and respectful debate within THR regarding the merits of this procedure vs. alternatives this platform provides.

So I manually decock. It seems perfectly safe to me, and if I'm wrong, I'll only have a hole in the wall or floor to patch because I keep aware of muzzle direction while decocking and always have it pointed in a safe direction. In the (IMO very unlikely) event of an ND, it won't be the end of the world.
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This somewhat understated view of the potential results of an ND are disturbing. Outside of a range environment, "safe direction" can very well be a matter of perspective. Other THR members may not have the same "safe direction certainty" in their non-range environment. I'd be particularly offended if a condition 2 enthusiast upstairs from me in a hotel had a "not the end of the world" view of an ND while "safely pointing" their piece down and away form their body which is their custom.


If you don't feel safe or comfortable decocking, then don't. If you don't think that those of us that do it is safe, then that's your opinion and you are quite welcome to it. I however am quite comfortable with it and I don't have a problem telling others that it is a viable option.
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It is only a viable option if:
1) you can be assured of rule 2 (muzzle direction) won't result in tragedy if operator is not able to execute the procedure properly
2) you can be assured of rule 3 (target verification and beyond) won't result in tragedy because of what is beyond line of sight when executing the procedure
3) that you are comfortable compromising rule 4 (finger out of trigger guard of loaded weapon only when on target) because in a stressful situation, you would rather use a DA/SA pistol as a DA pistol and are willing to gamble items 1 & 2 because of your fool proof ability to:
a) execute the procedure flawlessly every time
b) never use poor judgment regarding line of sight implications to an optional procedure if a) doesn't work out
c) never use poor judgment regarding risks related to objects outside of your line of sight if a) doesn't work out
d) explain why the exception to rule 4 is worth the risk when viable alternatives are available.

Obviously, no one on the "safety first" and "cocked and locked advocacy through training" can impose their opinions on a determined advocate of condition 2 via manual decocking.

What we can do, is vigorously (and respectfully) present what we think the risk/reward tradeoffs are, and THR members will have to determine for themselves the appropriate course of action.

When manipulating a loaded weapon, you impose your decisions on others. You have to be flawless in execution or extremely lucky to avoid unintentional consequences. That's why we train hard. That's why we consider the results of our actions. As someone so eloquently described in another thread and I'm paraphrasing:

Your piece is not your friend, it is an implement capable of permanent destruction to another human being, and it should be treated as hostile at all times...

As gun owners we need to do it right EVERY TIME. I've said my piece.

I'll leave you to your best judgment. Just remember that others also are depending on your abilities when a loaded firearm is involved.

Stay safe,

CZ52'
 
Marshal hit it right on the head.
Geeze, who cares? Everyone carry however they want, if you know your gun, your abilities and you're safe, decock however you want.
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What really matters is that YOU are familiar with the operations of YOUR weapon of choice. I prefer to carry my 75B in condition 2. I feel comfortable with a DA 1st shot, and with lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. If you don't, carry it in condition 1. Easy as that. Just be honest with yourself about your abilities.

Everybody play nice now... or you'll have to take it outside
:)

Calhoun
 
Actually CZ52GUY hit it right on the head...

Marshal hit it right on the head.---Calhoun
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Actually CZ52GUY hit it right on the head and drove it home.



Just be honest with yourself about your abilities.---
Click to expand...

Very good advice which applies to all of us, right?


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
Very good advice for all of us.

As for me, I'm not afraid of my pistol. I respect its destructive ability, but do not fear it. I am well-practiced with it and am capable of operating it safely. I also am not afraid to carry my Marlin in the woods, nor am I afraid of decocking my CZ-75.

I repeat that the only AD/ND I have EVER experienced has been in using a decocker.

But, as this argument is as unwinable by either side as the .45 versus 9mm debate, I bow out.

Ash
 
Actually, Marshal did hit it right on the head when he said "if you know your gun, your abilities and you're safe, decock however you want."

And that advice to be honest about your abilities DOES apply to everyone. Myself included.

Ash, I'm right behind you. We can re-visit this debate in a few months. I'm sure that someone will keep our seats warm.


On another note, everybody have a good (and safe) weekend.

Calhoun
 
It's a mechanical thing :)

The argument is funny in a way.

On one side there are those who feel it's unsafe to decock SA/DA, which of course suggests/implies that label to those that decock.

While the other side feels that it's a skill/courage agument and suggests/implies that label to those that don't decock.

It's really about the mechanics of the beast and whether preventing a discharge should rely on human action.


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
We don't put China on the floor. :)

If I had to hold the plate by its edge with just my finger and thumb (as you might the hammer on a CZ-75B) or leave it held mechanically on the table (as in not decocking the hammer). I'd leave it on the table. :)


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
This somewhat understated view of the potential results of an ND are disturbing.
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I'm sorry if I gave the impression of being cavalier in my attitude. I am VERY careful of what I consider a safe direction. If by some chance I had an ND while manually decocking in my bedroom, the bullet would go through the exterior wall and into the garden soil. (I live in a rambler) If I were at a hotel I'd probably be carrying my PCR which is a decocker pistol.

I'm not interested in arguing the point, I was just stating that there are circumstances where I prefer my weapon being decocked. Most CZ models and many other pistols are designed to have manual decocking as an option, otherwise it would make no sense to offer a DA mode on a pistol without a decocker. I still consider manual decocking very safe when done carefully, but do take pains that if the unlikely happens no one gets hurt.

Nonq
 
I can understand some concern WRT manual decocking, but I kind of wonder if those who decry it also decry the manual decocking regimen on the vast majority of lever-action guns sold in the last century and a half? Do any of them own a lever gun?

Both the CZ75 and my wife's Rossi 92 have manual decocking as a part of design. Is manually decocking the '92 also a hazard? If not, why then is the CZ75 unsafe? (Which has more inherent safety devices built in as part of its design)

I have spent a bit of time manually decocking my 1911 since this thread started and have yet to flub it. It ain't rocket science. I wouldn't recommend it if you were halfway into a case of beer, but then you wouldn't be using firearms under such condiitons.

The worry seems a bit selective:
Manually decocking lever guns-OK
Manually decocking DA revolvers-OK
Manually decocking SA revolvers-OK
Manually decocking DA/SA semi autos-NOT OK

Its a bit academic for me, since I've decided on the CZ75SA (unless a used CZ75 pops up) and will use it C&L. Still, knowing how to properly use one's chosen weapon to its fullest capacity does not seem unreasonable.
 
It's really about the mechanics of the beast and whether preventing a discharge should rely on human action.
Click to expand...

Preventing (or causing) a discharge always relies on humnan action!

Holding the hammer to lower it is potentially a problem because it can slip. But using your off hand thumb between the hammer and slide as a mechanical interference (like I, and others have described) is as good as any other mechanical interference to prevent firing pin impact when lowering the hammer.

--wally.
 
Wally,

Preventing (or causing) a discharge always relies on humnan action!---Wally
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No, initially its the mechanics of the beast alone that is preventing the cocked hammer from striking the firing pin and thus (I've always wanted to use "thus" in a sentance) causing a discharge.

It's only when human action over rides the mechanics that we rely on human action to prevent the discharge.

Of course one could make an argument that the gun couldn't get to cock and locked without human action. But that would be weak inview of the thread's purpose.




But using your off hand thumb between the hammer and slide as a mechanical interference (like I, and others have described) is as good as any other mechanical interference to prevent firing pin impact when lowering the hammer.---Wally
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Wally I don't believe that you are as safe as a mechanical decocker, no offense but I think you are human. But if that ture then there would be no need for DAO pistols. In that there is no mechanicial decocker the CZ-75B in question the statement is moot.


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
Do any of them own a lever gun?
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1) I can't speak for the others, but yes I've got a nice Model 94 (1957) setting not 10 feet from me.

2) I couldn't follow your logic on this question.

3) Now it's not Rocket science. I think don't handling a firearm and drinking go together. And no I don't want to argue this point with you.

4) Yes it's been very selective as that was the topic we were on (SA CZ-75Bs and 1911s).

5)
Still, knowing how to properly use one's chosen weapon to its fullest capacity does not seem unreasonable.
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It's also not unreasonable to use them safely.;)


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
If I had to hold the plate by its edge with just my finger and thumb (as you might the hammer on a CZ-75B) or leave it held mechanically on the table (as in not decocking the hammer). I'd leave it on the table.
Click to expand...


Well, let me see, I hold the gun with all my fingers and use my thumb on the hammer, just as I would hold the underside of a plate with all my fingers and use my thumb on the top side, as in the hammer.

Now, I must be rare, because I trust my abilities to set a plate down holding it as I would hold a pistol while decocking, all day long. ;)
 
You must be....

Marshall,

I'll have to say you've won the argument as I expect you've never dropped anything that you were holding with just one hand, right? ;)

Of course if you had then I'd guess you're just human.


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
jdkelly,

Of course I have. I am as careful and adept with decocking as I am as careful and adept at pulling the trigger! Remember, it's a human function as well?


And to use your same logic, I guess you have never had anything mechanical break, huh. Gun repairs never happen! :D :)
 
Of course one could make an argument that the gun couldn't get to cock and locked without human action. But that would be weak inview of the thread's purpose
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I don't see the arguement to be weak in any way. The gun doesn't load itself.
You can only manually decock the gun with the safety off. I prefer cocked and locked.

How safe or unsafe a gun is depends on who is holding it, much more than the fine print issues of its design.

There has been cases of the mechanical decocker failing and the gun discharging instead of decocking. Walther P38 comes to mind here.

There is at least one report of a decocked SIG firing and killing an officer when dropped.

--wally.
 
Wally and Marshall,

The thread started with an assumption that the handgun was cocked and asking for a "fool/fumble-proof" way of decocking.

So getting the handgun to the cocked position is irrelevant to the thread's purpose.

And, as there was no decocker mentioned on either of the two hand guns, then that shouldn't come into mix either.

But it did, as did china, revolvers, lever actions etc. So I'll just say that I believe that the higher rate of AD/ND failure would be that of the human rather then that of the mechanical decocker.

I'd ask you both if in the course of your life times of shooting which you've seen more of, an AD/ND caused by a malfunctioning mechanical decocker or an AD/ND buy another shooter letting a hammer down on a round?

To sum up my thoughts on this subject I'd say:

That manually decocking a firearm is dangerous, if you're human. :)


Be safe gentlemen.


Respectfully,

jdkelly
 
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