1911 grip safety question

[f4t9r]

my grip safety on my 1911 only moves about 50 thousands, very little. I'm talking about the movement it takes to disengage the grip safety. Most every other moves about 1/4 inch. It seems to function ok. Is this a concern

 

[dmazur]

I'm only a kitchen table gunsmith, but I have detail stripped our 3 1911's quite frequently.

I managed to stone sear faces, replace the 3-leaf springs, replace factory triggers with adjustable triggers, and run into grip safeties which didn't like the new triggers.

My best guess is that parts have been changed and the new trigger bow isn't letting the grip safety "fall" into position.

If it is an adjustable trigger, it is possible that someone adjusted it too far, trying to remove all slack, and took all of the motion out, preventing normal trigger reset. Or, if they didn't adjust it, the screw moved with vibration and adjusted itself...

Someone who knows more about 1911's may have a better idea, but that's what it sounds like to me from afar, without seeing the suspect.

 

[chris in va]

No, that's not normal. Get it checked out.

 

[Jim K]

If the trigger won't move unless the grip safety is depressed, the safety is doing its job, but I suspect it is not fully engaging the trigger bow, so a hard trigger pull might override it. Whether a functioning grip safety is something you feel you need to have is your choice; some folks lock them out entirely, though I don't recommend that on a defense gun because of possible legal problems if you have to use the gun.

If the gun is new, you might take it back to the dealer or return it to the factory. The fix should be simple but a DIY job would depend on your knowledge of the pistol.

Jim

 

[krupparms]

There are people that feel that the 1911 didn't need a grip safety. Some say that's why the H.P. didn't have one. There are a few companys that make 1911s sans grip safety. The 'Ballster- Molina' made in Argentina is very similar to a 1911A1 without a grip safety. However I digress. You need to have your pistol looked at by a gunsmith. Even if it's not broke, you need to ensure the pistol is safe for use! Good luck!

 

[Drail]

This is a classic example of "tolerance stacking". It works both ways and is a common problem with mass produced guns. You can get one that only moves a tiny bit like yours - or one that won't release even if you chicken choke it. Believe it or not people will pay money to have their GS adjusted to operate just like yours. I used to do this for competition shooters (only if I knew them and their gunhandling skills very well). Find a good pistolsmith that works on 1911s if you feel it is dangerous (in your opinion). An equal number of comp guys will simply have their GS pinned down.

 

[1911Tuner]

An equal number of comp guys will simply have their GS pinned down.

Yep. And many of the ones who don't have theirs adjusted to disengage with minimal movement.

While a hard trigger pull might override it...holding in in your hand so you can pull the trigger that hard would place it in the firing position anyway.

Do a quick test. Gun empty. Manual safety in the fire position. Without touching the grip safety, pull the trigger with about double the amount of force needed to fire the gun. Then, hold the left, rear of the gun close to your ear and gently, slowly pull the hammer back off the sear. Don't let it touch the grip safety.

If you hear a faint "click" sound, the sear moved and the safety needs attention. If you don't hear it...the safety is functioning as intended. There are competitors who pay good money to have their grip safeties "sped up" to disengage with .050 inch of movement.

 

[ATLDave]

What's the grip safety on a 1911 really there for? Why does a 1911 need one when so many other guns don't? To prevent a muzzle-up discharge if dropped. The trigger on a 1911, by virtue of being made of metal and traveling in a straight line, can carry enough inertia to "pull itself" if the gun is dropped and lands on its butt/rear. A grip safety, however, carrying inertia in the same direction will be putting itself on. A small travel/"fast" safety isn't an obstacle to this purpose/function (provided the safety does operate per 1911Tuner's test).

However, there are some other benefits of a grip safety, such as methods of holstering without the grip safety engaged, that may be somewhat diminished by a fast safety. Only you know whether these other benefits matter to you.

 

[1911Tuner]

What's the grip safety on a 1911 really there for? Why does a 1911 need one when so many other guns don't? To prevent a muzzle-up discharge if dropped.

Bingo.

Dropped from horseback, the pistol is more likely to land muzzle up than down. Muzzle down AD pretty much requires that it strike a hard surface, like concrete or asphalt. Muzzle down on the ground...even if it does fire a round...the bullet is directed into the dirt.

Muzzle up presents a hazard to both horse and mounted trooper.

Hence the grip safety requirement.

The grip safety isn't even a "safety" in the traditional sense.

When you hold the gun in a normal grip, it automatically moves the the firing position, and only returns to the safe position when the gun isn't held.

i.e. Why would anyone load the pistol...hold it in an unnatural pt awkward way...and try to pull the trigger in an equally unnatural and awkward way? It doesn't follow logic.

 

[Chocolate Bayou]

my grip was a little loose, so I took to local gunsmith who replaced the old bushing and now the grips are tight as new cost about $40.00 IIRC

 

[tipoc]

my grip safety on my 1911 only moves about 50 thousands, very little. I'm talking about the movement it takes to disengage the grip safety. Most every other moves about 1/4 inch. It seems to function ok. Is this a concern

Interesting. Most grip safeties have a bit more than .050" movement to them but not much more than .100". I don't recall running across a 1911 with a grip safety that had a quarter inch of movement, meaning .250". It may be that the movement in the op is exaggerated a bit.

Most important is that the safety do what it's supposed to.

If in doubt try it as others have suggested or take it to a smith for a check.

tipoc

 

[1911Tuner]

Interesting. Most grip safeties have a bit more than .050" movement to them but not much more than .100".

If I had one that required a 10th of an inch to release the trigger, I'd fix it. Most of'em release at about a 16th inch or less. IMO .050 is plenty. As long as it blocks the trigger until the gun is gripped, it's good to go.

 

[tipoc]

Looking at it (I pulled out a couple of my guns and a set of calipers) .050 is quite a bit of movement. I don't know that that's a problem at all. Long as it works.

What's the verdict from the op?

tipoc

 

[tark]

If it functions like it should and a hard squeeze on the trigger won't override it, forget about it and enjoy the gun. Try the following. Clear the gun and point it in a safe direction with the hammer cocked. Pull the trigger and hold it with moderate pressure. At the same time slowly depress the grip safety while keeping pressure on the trigger. At the exact moment the grip safety disengages the hammer will fall. If the hammer falls at the very beginning or the end of grip safety movement the gun needs work. If the hammer falls about halfway through the grip safeties arc of movement; things are adjusted just right.
This is a very important test, because if the grip safety doesn't release until it is almost fully depressed it could cost you your life in a fight. A bit of dirt in the wrong spot could keep the safety from fully depressing when you need it to. If this is the case, a gunsmith can easily correct it in a few minutes with a file.
If the safety releases the trigger with very little movement, I honestly wouldn't bother trying to fix it unless it is really bugging you. There is a reason why John Browning didn't bother to put one on the High Power. As has been mentioned, a lot of competition shooters consider it a pain in the butt and disable it entirely.

 

[1911Tuner]

There is a reason why John Browning didn't bother to put one on the High Power. As has been mentioned, a lot of competition shooters consider it a pain in the butt and disable it entirely.

Well...Seein' that John Browning never even saw a High Power, it wasn't really up to him. The High Power wasn't completed until late 1934 and made its debut in 1935. Browning died in 1926 while he was working on a stack barrel shotgun for FN Herstal.

The High Power didn't have a grip safety because the people who contracted for it didn't specify one. If they had, the High Power would be wearin' a grip safety today. Bet on it.

 

[ATLDave]

The High Power didn't have a grip safety because the people who contracted for it didn't specify one. If they had, the High Power would be wearin' a grip safety today. Bet on it.

True, although there's not the same need for it. Hi-Power triggers pivot, so they are far less likely to "pull themselves" through inertia on impact at the end of a muzzle-up drop.

 

[1911Tuner]

True, although there's not the same need for it.

True...but all too often,"need" doesn't even come into the question.

For instance...one would assume that a DAO revolver would have no earthly need for a grip safety.

Yet, there it is on the Smith "Lemon Squeezer."

 

[tark]

John Browing was commissioned by FN to design a pistol in response to a French request for a new military pistol. This was in the early twenties. I have no idea if a grip safety was part of the original French specifications or not. Browning submitted two designs and was, indeed , working on the shotgun when he died. Of the two designs, the locked breech one was accepted in 1934 and put into production. So, while Browning never did actually see his design produced, he DID design it. Guess we will never know if he wanted a grip safety or not.

 

[1911Tuner]

So, while Browning never did actually see his design produced, he DID design it.

No. Dieudonne Saive designed the High Power as we know it. He used several of Browning's ideas, but he had to wait until the patents that Colt owned expired before he could proceed.

Browning designed the Grande Rendement, which the French gave the thumbs down to because it was too big and too heavy. The project was shelved in 1925 and Browning moved on to the superposed shotgun that he was working on when he died. Browning's pistol was never produced in any significant numbers. If memory serves me, there were only three.

In other words...Browning's last pistol design was a flop.

The 1911 had a grip safety because the US Army wanted one. Browning didn't necessarily do what he wanted. He designed what he was asked for. The 1911 had a thumb safety because the US Cavalry asked for one in the 11th hour. It became the last modification before adoption. The grip safety was present on the Model of 1907 and the 1909, and it returned on the 1911.

And the grip safety was Georg Luger's idea anyway.

The High Power didn't have a grip safety precisely because nobody asked for one. That's how contracts work. You give the customer what HE wants...not what YOU want him to have. If a grip safety had been specified, it would have been there.

This is Browning's Grande Rendement. Take note that some of the information given in the text is in error.

 

[Drail]

I just loves forums where we can learn from guys like Tuner who has been doing this stuff for "lo these many years". It's so refreshing after reading 15 posts where people keep repeating the same tired old "internet theories" until no one can hardly remember what the discussion what even about. Thank you very much for all the help you give. There's an old saying about "old guys know stuff". Oh yes indeed.

 

[tark]

Hear hear! And some old guys have actually worked in the gun industry for almost a quarter century whareas others worked for a pet magazine.

 

[1911Tuner]

And some old guys have actually worked in the gun industry for almost a quarter century whareas others worked for a pet magazine.

Anyhoo...A Google search of the Grande Rendement will show a picture of the High Power...which it's not...so there's a lot of goofy information out there. To find good information, ya gotta dig deep into some hard to find books and study Browning's patents.

And since it seems to have come up...my dance with Johnny's Toy...historical and mechanical...started in 1960.

 

[tark]

Well tuner, I must admit that I have learned something about High Powers. I thought John Browning designed it and is is obvious to me, now, that he had little to do with it. That just goes to show you that just because you read something all your life, that doesn't make it true. You never stop learning.

 

[1911Tuner]

I must admit that I have learned something about High Powers. I thought John Browning designed it and is is obvious to me, now, that he had little to do with it.

You're in good company, tark. Most people...and I mean a pretty strong majority...believe that Browning corrected his mistakes on the 1911 with the High Power, and some of'em will argue it to the point of hostility...until ya hit'em with the year of his death.

There was another one makin' its rounds recently that Browning actually designed the 1911 for the .38 Super...a cartridge that didn't appear until 1929...three years after he died.

I mean...he was good, but he wasn't that good.

The things ya hear on the internet.

 

[kilibreaux]

"50 thousandths?" No, that's by no means normal.
I'm not sure how a 1911 thumb safety can move .050" and allow the pistol to function.