1911Tuner
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Grip safety. The topic is the grip safety.
1911 grip safety question
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Grip safety. The topic is the grip safety.
Probably confusion with turn of the century JMB/Colt pistols that chambered the similarly dimensioned .38 ACP (sometimes called .38 Auto), which the M1900, M1902 Military Model, and M1903 Pocket Hammer were chambered in and which formed the basis for the original .45 ACP Colt auto, the M1905.
Mix that in with the fact that the .38 Super was designed for use in 1911 pistols and the internet being he world's longest game of telephone, it's not that surprising that someone along the way mixed the messages.
1911Tuner
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Yep...and here's the kicker. The .38 Auto's original ballistics were actually just a bit hotter than the later .38 Super's. They toned it down when it started bustin' the old pistols while-u-wait. The same problems returned in the 1905 .45 caliber pistols, which were pretty much the same as the earlier ones.
The 1907 wasn't a lot better. It still had the double barrel links fore and aft, and the same rear slide dismount, etc. as its predecessors.
It became pretty clear that the US Army wasn't going to have its .45 caliber self-loading pistol without starting from scratch.
The Model of 1909 was a complete redesign with its single link/tilting barrel and front slide dismount, among other improvements to stop the slide and barrel without self-destruction under the heavier recoil forces and impacts generated by the .45 cartridge. In the 1909, we start to see the 1911 truly evolve.
1911Tuner
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Top to bottom, the models 1905...1907...and 1909.
Other than the grip safety, not a lot of difference between the 05 and 07.
The grip safety first appeared on a few 1905s as an experimental add-on, and was incorporated into the design in the 1907.
Other than the grip safety, not a lot of difference between the 05 and 07.
The grip safety first appeared on a few 1905s as an experimental add-on, and was incorporated into the design in the 1907.
tipoc
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Well maybe, kinda sorta.
The 1911 was chambered in the 38 acp round in 1927. Colt named the gun Colt Super 38. There was no separate round called 38 Super but there was a gun named the "Super 38" which fired the 38 acp round. Same semi rimmed Browning designed round as the earlier Browning guns...the M1900, 1902 Military, 1903 pocket hammer, etc.
The 1911 was a much stronger design than the earlier "parallel ruler" guns though and could handle a stronger charge than the older guns. Which led to the ballistic upgrade of the 38 acp round.
In the early days of the 38 Super it was quickly seen that increasing the pressures of the round led to rapidly beating the older guns to death. So the older loads for the 38 acp were sold in brass cases while the newer loads sold in nickel plated cases. This lasted for a few decades.
Reloading manuals from the 30s up to the 80s generally show no loads for anything named the 38 Super round. They do show the 38 acp.
Colt listed up till the late 80s early 1990s the Colt "38 Super" gun as loaded in the 38 acp round. No mention of the 38 Super round.
Sometime in the 1980s or so SAMMI officiallyand quietly recognized the 38 Super load as a separate round. Manufacturers began changing the labeling on the boxes. Some calling it the 38 Super +P. Some continue to load it to the older 1100 fps or so ballistics with a 130 gr. pill while others load it substantially stronger.
tipoc
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Might wanna recheck that data, tipoc. I remember seeing old boxes of ammunition in my father's cabinet marked .38 Super that he told me he'd had since before I was born just before we shot about half of it up. If memory serves me, that was sometime around 1963...but the boxes were clearly marked .38 Super Automatic. (Winchester Super X)
The original .38 Auto was loaded with a round nose lead bullet. He had a small lot of that ammunition that we shot through a Llama .38 Super pistol that he had for a short time. When the hotter Super was intoduced, it sported a jacketed 130-grain round nose bullet.
In the 80s, there was a .38 Auto P+ Silvertip loading from Winchester, but that was the only one so marked that I remember. It was loaded in nickel cases, and was assumed to be .38 Super...but it was more betwixt and between. Chronograph testing from a Colt Super Lite Commander turned in velocities in the 1130-1140 fps range, which would *probably* have hit 1200 from a 5-inch gun, but I never got the chance to test it before I sold the Commander and the ammunition in a package deal. Still not quite "Super" numbers, no doubt because of all the old guns that were still in circulation.
As for the original .38 Auto:
Cut/Paste
Reported ballistics for the first commercial loads were a 130-grain bullet at 1,260 ft/s (380 m/s), and some experimental loads ran as high as 1,350 ft/s (410 m/s).[3] However, these ballistics proved too violent for the Colt Model 1900 pistol, and velocities were soon lowered to below 1,200 ft/s.
The original .38 Auto was loaded with a round nose lead bullet. He had a small lot of that ammunition that we shot through a Llama .38 Super pistol that he had for a short time. When the hotter Super was intoduced, it sported a jacketed 130-grain round nose bullet.
In the 80s, there was a .38 Auto P+ Silvertip loading from Winchester, but that was the only one so marked that I remember. It was loaded in nickel cases, and was assumed to be .38 Super...but it was more betwixt and between. Chronograph testing from a Colt Super Lite Commander turned in velocities in the 1130-1140 fps range, which would *probably* have hit 1200 from a 5-inch gun, but I never got the chance to test it before I sold the Commander and the ammunition in a package deal. Still not quite "Super" numbers, no doubt because of all the old guns that were still in circulation.
As for the original .38 Auto:
Cut/Paste
Reported ballistics for the first commercial loads were a 130-grain bullet at 1,260 ft/s (380 m/s), and some experimental loads ran as high as 1,350 ft/s (410 m/s).[3] However, these ballistics proved too violent for the Colt Model 1900 pistol, and velocities were soon lowered to below 1,200 ft/s.
tipoc
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It's a myth that the 38 Super was created in 1929. The gun was but not the round. The 38 acp and the 38 Super round are identical in case length and dimensions. A quick check of Ammo Encyclopedia, Cartridges of the World, Forker's Ammo and Ballistics and other sources will confirm that.
Quoted from:
http://www.38super.net/Pages/Technical Specs.html
The 9x23 Winchester is a different round altogether. Though it did derive from the 38 Super.
Let's check in with Doug Sheldon, author of "Colt's 38 Super" and his chapter on the cartridge beginning on page 223. (the same information can be found here...http://www.38super.net/Pages/History.html)
The 38 acp was developed by John Browning and Colt engineers for the model 1900 pistol which Colt hoped to interest the military in. Colt maintained that the new round got 1260 fps from the 6" barrel. Which made it at that time the most powerful round fired from a semi-automatic pistol.
Depending on ammo manufacturers the velocity listed from the gun varied from 1160 to 1280 fps. Below is a model 1902 Military which fired the same round...
The 1903 Pocket Hammer was introduced a year later with a 4 1/2" barrel.
At some point Colt advised ammo manufacturers to down load the round to 1040 fps as the older design wad problems with wear with the hotter rounds.
The military did not widely adopt these guns and sales were modest. In 1928 all production of these guns ended.
In 1929 Colt placed the excellent round in the 1911. Contrary to what is said in a number of places ammo manufacturers did not increase the velocity of the round in 1929 neither was a new round announced. The new gun was chambered in the old 38 acp at the same velocities.
Colt listed the velocity from a 5" barrel in 1929 at 1190 fps.
However in 1932 Remington announced a new line of oil proof handgun cartridges and the velocity of the 38 acp rounds they produced increased to 1300 fps. In 1933 Colt first mentions the new velocities in an ad for the guns but still refers to the round as the 38 automatic.
There is some confusion about when ammo manufacturers followed Big Greens lead and upped the velocity to 1300 from a 5" barrel.
Throughout the 30s and 40s ammo manufacturers and Colt slowly realized that the older guns took a beating with the increased velocity of the 1300 fps loads and began loading the lower velocity rounds in brass cases and nickel plated cases for the higher. Some took to marking the pachages as "For Colt Super 38 only", etc.
Colt continued to call the round the 38 Automatic into the 1980s. Below a manual from then.
Two boxes one from the late 60s the other from the early 1980s...Winchester Super X.
Today you can still find ammo loaded to the older 1190-1250 loads about what the 9mm does and to the less older commercial loads of 1300.
Sometime in the 80s or so ammo manufacturers settled on calling the round the "38 Super" with boxes marked accordingly.
tipoc
Quoted from:
http://www.38super.net/Pages/Technical Specs.html
The 9x23 Winchester is a different round altogether. Though it did derive from the 38 Super.
Let's check in with Doug Sheldon, author of "Colt's 38 Super" and his chapter on the cartridge beginning on page 223. (the same information can be found here...http://www.38super.net/Pages/History.html)
The 38 acp was developed by John Browning and Colt engineers for the model 1900 pistol which Colt hoped to interest the military in. Colt maintained that the new round got 1260 fps from the 6" barrel. Which made it at that time the most powerful round fired from a semi-automatic pistol.
Depending on ammo manufacturers the velocity listed from the gun varied from 1160 to 1280 fps. Below is a model 1902 Military which fired the same round...
The 1903 Pocket Hammer was introduced a year later with a 4 1/2" barrel.
At some point Colt advised ammo manufacturers to down load the round to 1040 fps as the older design wad problems with wear with the hotter rounds.
The military did not widely adopt these guns and sales were modest. In 1928 all production of these guns ended.
In 1929 Colt placed the excellent round in the 1911. Contrary to what is said in a number of places ammo manufacturers did not increase the velocity of the round in 1929 neither was a new round announced. The new gun was chambered in the old 38 acp at the same velocities.
Colt listed the velocity from a 5" barrel in 1929 at 1190 fps.
However in 1932 Remington announced a new line of oil proof handgun cartridges and the velocity of the 38 acp rounds they produced increased to 1300 fps. In 1933 Colt first mentions the new velocities in an ad for the guns but still refers to the round as the 38 automatic.
There is some confusion about when ammo manufacturers followed Big Greens lead and upped the velocity to 1300 from a 5" barrel.
Throughout the 30s and 40s ammo manufacturers and Colt slowly realized that the older guns took a beating with the increased velocity of the 1300 fps loads and began loading the lower velocity rounds in brass cases and nickel plated cases for the higher. Some took to marking the pachages as "For Colt Super 38 only", etc.
Colt continued to call the round the 38 Automatic into the 1980s. Below a manual from then.
Two boxes one from the late 60s the other from the early 1980s...Winchester Super X.
Today you can still find ammo loaded to the older 1190-1250 loads about what the 9mm does and to the less older commercial loads of 1300.
Sometime in the 80s or so ammo manufacturers settled on calling the round the "38 Super" with boxes marked accordingly.
tipoc
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yet, there were still those boxes of Super X marked "38 Super Automatic" that I saw and fired. I didn't dream it.
tark
Member
I think we are wandering a bit....What happened to grip safeties? LOL Still interesting, however. I can remember buying ammo marked 38 SUPER when I was a kid. Over fifty years ago....
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
My 1967 Shooters Bible lists .38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol ammo made by Rem, Peters, Win, and Western.
All 130 grain FMJ.
All MSRP of $5.35 a box.
(Adopted to Colt Super 38 Automatic, Commander, and Llama pistols only.)
They also list 38 Automatic Colt Pistol with the same bullet weight, and the same price.
(Adopted only for 38 Colt Sporting, Military and Pocket Model Pistols. These pistols were discounted after 1928.)
My 1931 Colt factory catalog lists 'The new Colt Super .38 Automatic Pistol' for the grand sum of $36.75.
My Colt book by R.L. Wilson says, 'Colt Super .38 was added in 1929.
Whether Super 38, or 38 Super?
We are arguing over the semantics.
Not the facts.
Kinda like all .357 Magnum ammo used to say .357 S&W Magnum on the box.
But now it does't.
rc
All 130 grain FMJ.
All MSRP of $5.35 a box.
(Adopted to Colt Super 38 Automatic, Commander, and Llama pistols only.)
They also list 38 Automatic Colt Pistol with the same bullet weight, and the same price.
(Adopted only for 38 Colt Sporting, Military and Pocket Model Pistols. These pistols were discounted after 1928.)
My 1931 Colt factory catalog lists 'The new Colt Super .38 Automatic Pistol' for the grand sum of $36.75.
My Colt book by R.L. Wilson says, 'Colt Super .38 was added in 1929.
Whether Super 38, or 38 Super?
We are arguing over the semantics.
Not the facts.
Kinda like all .357 Magnum ammo used to say .357 S&W Magnum on the box.
But now it does't.
rc
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tipoc
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Nope we're arguing certain facts. Wilson is wrong when he says that and so is Barnes in Cartridges of the World. It was the gun named the Colt Super 38 but the ammo was the old 38 acp. When the ammo began to be called "38 Super" rather than 38 acp to distinguish it from the loads preferred for the older guns is in dispute. Disputed because it did not happen all at once and was later than some think.
This was the first +P round before the term was popular or used. Manufacturers were producing the same ammo for the older parallel ruler guns and the 1911 simultaneously. One loaded down and one up. One brass cased one nickel plated. Some marked For "38 Super only" some marked as the pics above. There was no one year or date that the designations changed. The change rolled out over years. Nowdays it's all marked 38 Super and only one company produced any 38acp rounds. But some product is loaded to the old standards while some aims for the 1300 and makes or exceeds it.
This was the same period of time the manufacturers had trouble naming the heavier loads for the 38 Spl. They settled that one by magnumizing it. First time. They did it with big fanfare.
But not with the 38acp. It took years for it to become the 38 Super.
Next gun show you're at pick up a copy of Sheldon's books "Colt's Super 38" and his guide to "Colt's .38 Automatic Pistols" and look at his discussion of the ammo.
My Lyman 1957 reloading catalog lists the .38 Colt Auto and tells me I can get it to 1310 fps from a 5" barrel. No mention of a round called the 38 Super.
My 1979 Speer reloading catalog does list the 38 Super and not the 38 acp. It tells me how to get a 125 gr. bullet up to 1303 fps and higher.
The more you look at this obscure issue the more you'll come to agree.
Anyway it's a detour from the grips question.
tipoc
This was the first +P round before the term was popular or used. Manufacturers were producing the same ammo for the older parallel ruler guns and the 1911 simultaneously. One loaded down and one up. One brass cased one nickel plated. Some marked For "38 Super only" some marked as the pics above. There was no one year or date that the designations changed. The change rolled out over years. Nowdays it's all marked 38 Super and only one company produced any 38acp rounds. But some product is loaded to the old standards while some aims for the 1300 and makes or exceeds it.
This was the same period of time the manufacturers had trouble naming the heavier loads for the 38 Spl. They settled that one by magnumizing it. First time. They did it with big fanfare.
But not with the 38acp. It took years for it to become the 38 Super.
Next gun show you're at pick up a copy of Sheldon's books "Colt's Super 38" and his guide to "Colt's .38 Automatic Pistols" and look at his discussion of the ammo.
My Lyman 1957 reloading catalog lists the .38 Colt Auto and tells me I can get it to 1310 fps from a 5" barrel. No mention of a round called the 38 Super.
My 1979 Speer reloading catalog does list the 38 Super and not the 38 acp. It tells me how to get a 125 gr. bullet up to 1303 fps and higher.
The more you look at this obscure issue the more you'll come to agree.
Anyway it's a detour from the grips question.
tipoc
1911Tuner
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These things tend to drift sometimes. As long as they don't go down in flames, and touch on some interesting points...they go on.
Was that ammo that you bought Super X? The old man had about 8 or 10 boxes of it along with some marked .38 Auto that we shot only in the Llama...with his warning to never shoot the other ammunition in it.
I remember it distinctly because it had been there for 3-4 years before we got around to turnin' some of it into empty brass...and I'd been a screamin' fan of Superman since I was old enough to turn on the TV...and I was a little curious about it. I wondered if it was made for him...and why Superman would need a gun...or if it was made of Kryptonite and he was about to be killed. Kids.
The salty old guy who brought me up explained it to me, and I felt better. Then, a little later I was allowed to shoot a couple boxes of it. We burned through the other stuff in the Llama pretty quick, and he sold the gun. He traded the Colt off when I wasn't lookin' and I never really forgave him for that.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yes. I used to have some of that ammunition back when I had a .38 Super Colt.
The boxes that my father had were from the early 50s, and they were marked 38 Super Automatic.
tark
Member
Tuner, I wish I could remember what brand it was, but I cant. All I remember was buying it and the clerk warning me not to shoot it "In any old colt marked .38 RIMLESS SMOKELESS". Good advice I suppose. I shot it in my first 1911.
tark
Member
By the way, I shoot super ammo in my Astra 400 these days,,,,after pulling the bullets and dropping the charge by 20% and reassembling. It makes a good Astra 400 load.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, I understand. Believe me.
But this is one that's clear. Every time the old man went to the gun room and opened the ammunition locker, I had my nose in it past my ears. The boxes marked "Super" held a fascination for me, and I opened one up every time I visited so I could coon-finger a cartridge and visualize it blowing holes in things that you could throw a good-sized cat through.
tipoc
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It's possible.
The general point though is that when Colt introduced the "Super 38" pistol for sale it was chambered in the 38acp. Which was either loaded up at that time or shortly afterward made hotter. 1300 fps or so. It was overtime that the 38 acp name morphed into the name 38 Super for the ammo. The two names for the same round existed side by side for several decades.
Sheldon's book page 226 features pics of various ammo boxes from the 30s-1960s which carry both names though the cartridge inside is the same.
Advertisements from the same time frame from Colt show the 38 Super Auto being loaded with the "38 acp" at a velocity of 1300 fps. The also mention the "new Super 38 round" in an ad from 1933. Side by side with other ads listing the ammo as the 38 acp.
Some literature says that when Colt introduced the 1911 in 38 Super that they introduced a new round. It isn't true. The round was the same older 38 acp. If a new round why not make it truly "rimless" like the 45 acp and chamber on the case mouth? They didn't cause it was the same round. Not a new one. Gradually it came to be called by a new name.
tipoc
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1911Tuner
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Oh, it's not only possible. It was there. I saw it.
1911Tuner
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Ok. I'll try again.
Across the locker from the SuperX boxes marked 38 Super Automatic were a few boxes marked .38 Auto Smokeless that were bought at around the same time as he acquired a Llama pistol that was chambered for the .38 Auto. It was roll marked Llama Especial 38/9mm and I was told that under no circumstances was the Super ammunition to be fired in it, even though it would accept it. Not long afterward, he bought or traded for a Colt and then I was told that we could shoot the Super ammo.
I was like a kid on Christmas Eve. The big day had arrived.
Imagine my disappointment when it wasn't all that I'd expected. It it didn't buck and roar any worse than the Ithaca that I'd cut my teeth on. It was, however noticeably warmer than the pedestrian .38 Auto Smokeless ammo, whichever one of the pistols we fired it in.
So, apparently they weren't both the same cartridge in the early 50s. I can't speak for the 20s 30s and 40s, but it seems to me that...given the number of old .38 Auto Colts in circulation...they'd want to have some way of differentiating besides fine print on the box...the way they did with .38 Special and 38-44.
tipoc
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I'm not sure what you're trying to do.
The way they ended up doing it with the 38 Special, after different companies called the hotter loads different things, was to create the 357 Magnum.
As I said earlier they began with the 38 acp and in order to differentiate between the loads for the 1911 began to refer to that as the 38 Super round. But it was the identical cartridge. The change in nomenclature took time and was not always consistent. But no new round was created in 1929.
It is a fact that in the 1940s ammo was being sold in boxes labeled 38 Super, in boxes labeled as "for the 38 Super" and as 38 acp boasting a velocity of 1300 fps. Into the 1980s Colt was including instruction sheets with the guns labeling as for the 38 Automatic cartridge.
I don't contest your memory.
When did Winchester introduce the Super X Silvertip JHP?
Sheldon reproduces on pages 227 and 228 two letters. One from Colt to Western Cartridge Company and the other from Western to Remington Arms.
Leonard Davis writing for Colt on Dec 8th 1944 says:
"We are very happy to have your letter of Dec. 5th and your inquiry relative to .38 Automatic ammunition for use in our various automatic pistols.
"Some years ago, I don't know exactly how many, it was decided that the Super 38 cartridge as a load having a velocity of about 1300 f.s was perfectly safe in the Super 38 Automatic pistol and the older type .38 caliber pistols..."
However he points out that they later changed their position and as of then recommended that the Super 38 cartridge be used only in the 38 Super gun. "As a result", Davis says, "a cartridge with lower velocity was brought out by some of the companies and this is the cartridge we have recommended for use in the two older models." So they were then recommending only the lower load for the older models a reversal of their previous position.
The second letter from Western to Remington of Dec 15th says that this is the first they had heard of the reversal of Colt's policy. The letter notes that they have a box of Remington ammo on hand that lists it as specifically for the 38 Super but also good for the older guns. They mention that they will have to research the matter and that should the 1300 fps cartridge not be suitable for the older guns they would have to label the boxes in some way to indicate that in order to protect themselves.
Eventually this was done. The hotter load was called the 38 Super load and the lighter the 38 acp. However if you look at the velocities of some of the ammo today labeled 38 Super you see it's still loaded for the older guns.
tipoc
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