1911 Half Cock Question

[1911Tuner]

Careful. You can become something of a pariah by spreading facts.

 

[HKGuns]

The replies to your excellent posts have caused me to leave the site. For me it's not worth the bovine fecal matter this moderator shovels around.

Really? Wow, that is an incredibly thin skinned reaction. Oh well, it takes all sorts to make the world go round.

Lots of good information in this thread.

 

[1911Tuner]

Really? Wow, that is an incredibly thin skinned reaction.

Nah. It's just an example of "My mind's made up! Don't try to confuse me with facts!"

I'm used to it.

There seems to be a prevailing need...drive...to dictate what other people do based on what is right for you. ("You" generically, not specifically.) Nobody can determine what is "right" for another person, especially if we have a choice in the matter that does no harm and doesn't present a clear or defined danger to us or those around us.

Yet, it remains. Puzzling. Very puzzling.

"Carry it cocked and locked (the way that JMB intended) or don't carry it!"

Is another way of saying:

"If you don't do it MY way, you're an idiot."

If Joe chooses to carry a 1911 in Condition 2...or Condition 3...or half-cocked...or broken down with the components in separate pockets...who am I to tell him that his choice is wrong or idiotic? It's his choice.

 

[hariph creek]

1911Tuner, I hope I didn't come across as a ''do it MY way, or you're an idiot'' type of idiot. I'm more of the ''doesn't get it'' type of idiot.
I was just trying share what works for me and why I don't worry to much about the half-cock question.
I try not to come across overly strident. I just have to much time to formulate my thoughts.
I like THR because it is kept civil. I find it to be very informative. I ''lurked'' for years, before I decided to join in the discussions.

 

[MythBuster]

"Carry it cocked and locked (the way that JMB intended) or don't carry it!"



If I had a dime for every time I read than on an internet fourm I could take off work for a long time.

 

[MythBuster]

Lets look at the BHP. Another one of JMB's designs. Did he "intend" that it was to be carried solely in condition one.

The old one had a HUGE hammer and a tiny hard to swipe thumb safety.

I know if I had designed this gun to be carried ONLY cocked and locked it would have added a differently shaped safety.

 

[GLOOB]

"Carry it cocked and locked (the way that JMB intended) or don't carry it!"

Actually, if you read his patent application (post #122, thanks to gc70), it was JMB's intent that the thumb safety be used to holster and carry the gun cocked and locked, whenever it must be instantly ready to use and to carry the maximum number of rounds. That describes CCW pretty well!

I find it interesting that the origin of the extended beavertail was actually to enable the gun to be decocked with one hand. No wonder the original beavertail is so darn skinny.

 

[gc70]

Lets look at the BHP. Another one of JMB's designs. Did he "intend" that it was to be carried solely in condition one.

Dieudonné Saive may or may not have intended the final BHP design to be carried soley in condition one, but JMB's original design which preceded the BHP was striker-fired.

 

[Old Fuff]

Patent No. 1070582 was an afterthought. Browning was well versed in manual safeties, and in fact he incorporated one in his first commercial pistol, which was made by Fabrique National. The patent was issued in 1897, and the pistol dated from 1899. Further, his use of both a grip and manual safety dated from 1903 - in both Colt and FN products.

The safety used in the soon-to-be model 1911 was introduced in a prototype 1911 style pistol during late 1910, but neither the inventor nor Colt rushed to patent it.

Browning never proposed the manal safety lock, it was strictly the Army's idea. The design of the part was Browning's, but the description concerning it's purpose and use came the military services. The older style Colt .38 pistols, first introduced in 1900, remained in production with neither a grip or manual safety until 1929. It would seem that at this time, cocked & locked carry was not a pressing issue.

 

[gc70]

I find it interesting that the origin of the extended beavertail was actually to enable the gun to be decocked with one hand. No wonder the original beavertail is so darn skinny.

It seems that Browning had a penchant for making parts do double duty, which applies to the grip safety. One purpose -to allow one-handed decocking- has already been described in post #122. The other purpose is described below.

Extended grip safety tang - US Patent 984519 filed 2/17/1910 and issued 2/14/1911, starting on page 7 at line 69:

In automatic firearms, in which, on firing, the uncovered hammer is returned to the cocked position by the rearward movement of the breech-bolt sliding on the frame under the energy of the recoil, this movement of the breech bolt and consequently the cocking of the hammer take place so rapidly that it is very essential to positively guard the hand of the operator grasping the grip of the pistol against inadvertently moving to a position in which it might come in contact with the hammer while the same is being cocked; because by such contact the hand would be exposed to receive serious injury.

As shown in the drawings, I have constructed the frame of the pistol with the usual rearward projection between the hammer and the grip to insure a secure grasp, and to prevent the hand from slipping upward; but as an additional preventative I have extended the nose w2 of the grip lever w rearward considerably beyond the frame, and have formed its lower portion so as to provide a guard which positively prevents the hand grasping the grip from coming in contact with the hammer. The projecting nose w2 being of the same width as that of the hammer and its sides corresponding vertically with those of the hammer, the nose fully covers and guards the rear and underside of the hammer. This construction is efficient and adds but very little to the weight of the arm, being much lighter than if the frame between the hammer and the grip lever in its entire width were extended forward a similar distance to form the necessary guard.

 

[1911Tuner]

The safety used in the soon-to-be model 1911 was introduced in a prototype 1911 style pistol during late 1910, but neither the inventor nor Colt rushed to patent it.

And here it is. There were eight of these in all. Six were retrofitted with the manual safety and resubmitted. Two are left. One in Colt's museum, and the one pictured in the private collection of Charles Clawson.

Dieudonné Saive may or may not have intended the final BHP design to be carried solely in condition one, but JMB's original design which preceded the BHP was striker-fired.

And here it is. His last pistol, the Grande Rendement. Browning didn't live long enough to see a High Power. He died in 1926.

 

[1911Tuner]

Dieudonné Saive may or may not have intended the final BHP design to be carried soley in condition one.

I seriously doubt if Saive had any intent at all. Like the 1911, there are four choices. He probably demonstrated those options and left it to the buyers to determine the manual of arms.

 

[gc70]

1911Tuner: did you notice that the photo of the Grande Rendement erroneously says "exposed-hammer" in the Description section?

I would guess that the description is of the GP35, with the photo of the Grande Rendement shown as part of the GP35's history.
.

 

[1911Tuner]

I did. It also said 13 rounds. The original Rendement held 15. Saive dropped it to 13 for the High Power in order to shorten the grip.