1911 Safety Disengaging in Truck

[rduchateau2954]

This was the second time I've discovered the safety off. First time in the door pocket.

What makes me especially cautious about this is the fact that I've had some trigger work done. It's lighter, smoother, with an aftermarket trigger.

Guys, I don't know what I think about carrying this gun anymore. Even as a woods gun.

 

[Slamfire]

This was the second time I've discovered the safety off. First time in the door pocket.

What makes me especially cautious about this is the fact that I've had some trigger work done. It's lighter, smoother, with an aftermarket trigger.

Guys, I don't know what I think about carrying this gun anymore. Even as a woods gun.

Now you are thinking, instead of following the herd. If you have to carry a 45 auto, I like this configuration:



No external safeties, first shot a long double action pull, and a manual decocker.

Personally, I carry this:



No external safeties, first and last shot a long double action pull, no decocker and no hammer to snag. Plus it is very compact.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not real sure what to do here. The obvious solution is to not keep it loaded in the truck, however if the lever can rattle enough to move the safety up and disengage it while driving I'm not sure I trust it when carrying it across rough terrain.

I carried a 1911 for a number of years with an extended thumb safety. I've also use holsters which were cut as low as that Galco (which I still think of by their original name Jackass) many times...originally the Milt Spark's Summer Special.

The issue you are experiencing isn't a gun issue or a holster issue. It is an issue of you using them in a way that they weren't designed to be used...upside-down. By turning the combination upside-down, you are exposing the thumb safety to pressures from directions which the holster wasn't designed to prevent.

The easiest way to avoid this issue is to place the gun/holster differently. If it must be in the door pocket, placing it vertically, and blocking it in place, should prevent the safety from being pushed off. You could just as easily place it between your seat cushion and your console

 

[Slamfire]

The issue you are experiencing isn't a gun issue or a holster issue. It is an issue of you using them in a way that they weren't designed to be used...upside-down. By turning the combination upside-down, you are exposing the thumb safety to pressures from directions which the holster wasn't designed to prevent.

So, your assumption is, if he carries the holster right side up, the thumb safety won't move, even though it does upside down. And that once right side up, the thumb safety won't be bumped to the off position, though it could and probably does, upside down. Seems to me the problem is not gravity, it's the thumb safety.

Holster design can only go so far, and then the strap gets loose, maybe the holster gets loose, and there you are, a loaded, cocked, M1911 pistol with the safety off, pointed at your butt.

The pistol was designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, hammer down. It is much safer to carry it that way, it is less likely to accidentally discharge if carried this way, though if dropped on the muzzle from a distance high enough, it will discharge just as so it will if dropped cocked and locked. Getting the hammer down without discharging the pistol is the real trick, and thumb de cocking is risky as heck.

 

[WrongHanded]

The easiest solution to your problem (whilst allowing you to continue storing the gun as you have been) is to get a new holster that covers the safety.

There are a couple pics in this link: https://www.defensivecarry.com/foru...96-simply-rugged-cuda-owb.html#/topics/150696

 

[340PD]

To pile on others you need a holster that has a groove on indention moulded to help keep the safety in the on position. That said, I had a Kimber Ultra CDP with an ambi safety that, even in a good holster would allow the safety to be snicked off from the right side. I easily solved that problem by installing a short, more compact right side lever.

 

[rduchateau2954]

Appreciate the input guys. Thank you.

Still trying to figure out what to do. At this point I think the holsters are going up for sale. Not sure about the gun itself. I hate trying to sell things on Armslist that cost more than a few hundred.

 

[ATLDave]

You should address this issue, but unless you have also deactivated the grip safety, you still have both a (holster-covered) trigger and a grip safety in the way of an AD.

In addition to fixing the holster/holster-orientation issue, you can also look into increasing the strength of the pluger spring and/or increasing the depth of the detents on the safety to make the safety more stiff and clicky.

 

[Slamfire]

You should address this issue, but unless you have also deactivated the grip safety, you still have both a (holster-covered) trigger and a grip safety in the way of an AD.

This called normalizing. If you saw the Movie "Deep Water Horizon" you saw a dramatic version of normalizing, perhaps a bit condensed for a movie, but nevertheless, normalizing. In the movie, if you were paying attention, all sorts of equipment were broke, when safety devices failed, they by passed them, when risk needed to be increased for time and money sake it was. At some point , Kaboom!

I wish I could come up with a better analogy, but I think normalizing can be thought of a volley ball court on the top of a shear canyon. Of course it is an impossibly tall canyon, thousands and thousands of feet deep, with sharp rocks and toothy sharks, at the bottom. Anyone who falls in the canyon is doomed. At the beginning the volley ball court is 50 yards away from the edge, but over time, need for parking lots, concessions, stands, and the court gets moved closer and closer to the edge. At 20 yards from the edge, an occasional loose ball goes over the side, but, so what, its a ball. Then the court edge is 10 feet from the edge, and a leaping player almost slides over, but the slide ends before the player is fully over the edge. Since the standard is, someone has to die, before anyone acknowledges there is problem, and no one died, nothing is done to move the court back from the precipice. Then, the net is moved closer, lets say 2 feet from the edge, and more players almost go over the edge, but are saved, so nothing is done. After all, the gold standard is a dead body, no dead body, no safety problem. Then, once the court edge is 1 foot from the edge of the chasm of doom, someone goes over the edge, crashes upon the rocks and is eaten by the sharks. Now that someone has finally died, the seriousness of the situation is acknowledged and the court is moved back to two feet from the edge, surviving players are given mandatory safety training, and management is indemnified from the problem they created.

Those that advise you to ignore the disabling of safety features, or to disable safety features because there are a lot left, have just moved the volley ball court on which you play on closer and closer to the chasm of doom and at some level of normalizing, over the edge you go.

 

[ATLDave]

Slam', I think you need to re-read my prior post, which began: "You should address this issue." And ended with some suggestions on how to prevent the manual safety from being accidentally disengaged.

 

[Slamfire]

Slam', I think you need to re-read my prior post, which began: "You should address this issue"

I understand, but I also wanted to bring out and discuss the concept of normalizing.

The original 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked. The safety was there to make the pistol safe with one hand, not to carry the pistol regularly with the hammer back and the chamber loaded. Even carrying the pistol with the hammer down and a round in the chamber, which was how the thing was envisioned to be carried, had risks because users had accidental discharges lowering the hammer with their thumb. This was the original intent, it is not perfect, but this is an early 20th century design. The early 20th century was a nasty time, a hazardous work environment was accepted and workers died all the time. At Harland and Wolff, one worker died for every 10,000 tons of ship, ships of the period were around 5,000 to 6,000 tons, a 10,000 ton ship was big, so some worker died for every one to two ships built, and society thought that was just wonderful. I think there was this Calvinistic attitude that the Elect were protected by God, and if you had an accident, it was just proof that you were one of the damned, and deserved what you got. So, we have this early 20th century design, and it has been further modified for shooting games. These extended magazine releases, extended safeties, beaver tails, these are features created because of shooting games. And while they work well in shooting games, where players are shooting against a clock, these features create their own problems for a carry gun. Making, I am going to say, an early 20th century design that had some carry and operational risk, more risky, and not appropriate for a carry gun. Holsters may help in making a fundamentally flawed design approach safer, but only as long as the holster does not fail, or is itself a fatally flawed concept, then back you are, with an altered design that is less safe than the original.

 

[ATLDave]

I think in an age when the most prevalent carry guns have no external safeties, calling a design that has two of them "not appropriate" for carry is.... odd.

 

[Slamfire]

I think in an age when the most prevalent carry guns have no external safeties, calling a design that has two of them "not appropriate" for carry is.... odd.

There has been a design evolution, not merely materials, but operational concepts too. The more flippers and levers, the greater the chance of an accident, or there would be more flippers and levers on pistols, not less. What I have seen in the market, is a replacement of pistols with external safeties, flippers and levers, to double action only auto pistols. That cannot be because they are less safe than a pistol festooned with fins, flippers and levers, but probably because there are less accidental discharges.

And there have been some spectacular failures. This squeeze cocker was ballyhooed at the time, then disappeared. When I got to handle one, I figured out why it was a failure. The operational sequence is, grab the gun, squeeze the front grip, cocking the pistol, and then, pull the trigger. Seems straightforward and simple, something that cannot go wrong?



What I found was that you could get the manual of arms mixed up. You could pull the trigger, then squeeze the grip, and the gun would discharge! Oops! Somebody just meant to get their pistol ready to shoot, and got confused over the sequence of operation, and what do you know, the Chief of Police has to explain why someone in their organization just shot Grandma. Society has lost patience with accidental shootings, just this month, a Texas Police officer is in prison, for going into the wrong apartment, in her apartment complex, and killing the legal occupant, of that apartment. Oops! she thought she was on the third floor, and it was the fourth floor, whoopsie, a mistake anyone could make. Except for the part about killing an innocent individual in their own abode.

Back in the day, if Charles Askins the gunwriter had done this, he would be bragging about it in his next column or article, and the readership would have eaten it up.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So, your assumption is, if he carries the holster right side up, the thumb safety won't move, even though it does upside down. And that once right side up, the thumb safety won't be bumped to the off position, though it could and probably does, upside down. Seems to me the problem is not gravity, it's the thumb safety.

You've either mis-interperated or mis-understood what I wrote.

It isn't about gravity, it is about orientation.

With the magazine well facing up, the thumb safety can be bumped whenever the vehicle goes over a bump. If there is anything else in the door pocket, along the sides, it can easily push the thumb lever off. As a matter of fact, the initial insertion of the gun into the pocket could easily move the safety to the off position

 

[Drail]

There was another reason the Army Ordnance Board insisted on the thumb safety (which John Browning personally had no use for - his personal 1911 had NO thumb safety on it) and that was to lock the slide in battery so that if a trooper needed to hurriedly reholster his sidearm and use both hands to regain control of a terrified horse the gun would not come out of battery. Every time the gun was reholstered the trooper could easily lock the slide in battery with the thumb safety with one hand. Actually, Browning carried ALL of his sidearms with the hammer down and cocked it on drawing. Just like the single action revolver it replaced. Most people accepted that practice after so many years of drawing and cocking SA revolvers. OP, you might want to reconsider the idea of carrying your 1911 in Cond. 1 in your door pocket. If you cannot wear it on your person then keep the chamber empty. A door pocket is no place for a sidearm that you might need in a hurry - if some creep yanks your door open at a stop light you can no longer reach your gun. If you don't need it in a hurry - unload it. Having a loaded gun loose in a vehicle can be A Very Bad Thing in an accident. It will become a flying missile in a wreck. It's not a cell phone and can crack your skull or a passenger's skull open if it becomes airborne. It really needs to be secured.

 

[9mmepiphany]

What I found was that you could get the manual of arms mixed up.

Mixing up a manual of arms is a training issue.

We had several original P7s carried as duty guns on my department and never had an AD with them

 

[9mmepiphany]

It has come to my attention that this thread is drifting away from the OP's request for help and into a discussion of the mechanical operation of the 1911.

I'm going to ask that further discussion on that subject (operation/design) be continued in another thread so that this one can remain focused.

Hint - further OT discussion will be removed

 

[ATLDave]

Redacted as OT - feel free to delete, mods.

 

[JR24]

This was the second time I've discovered the safety off. First time in the door pocket.

What makes me especially cautious about this is the fact that I've had some trigger work done. It's lighter, smoother, with an aftermarket trigger.

Guys, I don't know what I think about carrying this gun anymore. Even as a woods gun.

Is there an issue with just leaving the gun on your belt for the drive home?

I'm still a little confused what your worry is. When you draw a known loaded (and possibly off safe) gun, are you treating like you should every loaded gun? If so then the status should not be an issue, you are either unloading it (which for 1911s my first step in that case is always engaging the safety, or hooking my thumb under to verify) or you are shooting it, which should also involve a repetitive muscle memory disengagement of the safety.

I would say find a different holster for car carry, just carry it in your belt, and possibly return the trigger to stock, as I agree that a slicked up lighter trigger is likely a poor choice for carry in the 1911 platform unless you are really confident and well practiced with it.

 

[rduchateau2954]

You all make good points. To address a few;

- Yes the grip safety functions, I regularly test it.

- The safety was on before it went in the door. If you couldn't tell I'm a little paranoid about safeties.

- The door pocket didn't have anything else in it.

- My initial thought was the saftey/detent. However after double checking it and even taking a short video there is nothing wrong with the safety. On a flat surface trying to manipulate the safety I have to hold the gun down or the entire gun slides around by pushing on the safety.

 

[Slamfire]

With the magazine well facing up, the thumb safety can be bumped whenever the vehicle goes over a bump. If there is anything else in the door pocket, along the sides, it can easily push the thumb lever off. As a matter of fact, the initial insertion of the gun into the pocket could easily move the safety to the off position

Maybe the OP should only drive on smooth roads, that way the safety won't be bumped off.


Addendum: I am being factitious in this statement. I have been in states near by, Indiana and Michigan, where the roads are so hog wallowed out you would think you were sailing in troughs and changing tack, and then, encounter potholes so big they could swallow a semi!

 

[rduchateau2954]

JR, yes I follow the basic rules of gun safety. Both times I've discovered the safety was off was "hooking my thumb" as you call it. The same mindless routine I do every time I pick up a gun regardless of the last time I touched it.

Hearing and feeling the "click" when there shouldn't have been a click is not something I enjoy.

 

[rduchateau2954]

Maybe the OP should only drive on smooth roads, that way the safety won't be bumped off.

Cool, it's all on Wisconsin, Alumacraft, and modified Ram trucks. /s

 

[BSA1]

Slamfire,

That is a very interesting series of posts. The best thing about history is remembering it the way we want rather than how it really was. I surmise that you don't have much experience riding a horse.

O.P.,

My suggestion is to get rid of the extended thumb safety. You can do that by replacing it with the regular style safety or cut off the extension and reshape it.

I have a 1911 that I set up for IDPA when I was playing games that has a extended thumb safety. After using and comparing it to the safeties on my other 1911's I decided that I prefer the traditional style non-extended safety. The extended thumb safety to me looks like it is looking for something to snag on.

I would certainly try that before I sell the gun or the holster.

 

[JR24]

JR, yes I follow the basic rules of gun safety. Both times I've discovered the safety was off was "hooking my thumb" as you call it. The same mindless routine I do every time I pick up a gun regardless of the last time I touched it.

Hearing and feeling the "click" when there shouldn't have been a click is not something I enjoy.

I hear ya, I've had those surprises too myself on a few occasions. Very disconcerting, but also helpful in letting you know you're doing safety right.