1911A1 Remington-Rand

[mm93]

New here, and my first post. So thanks ahead of the question!

I just picked up a Remington_Rand 1911A1, and my first 1911A1 also. I've had series 70 and 80 Colts and Colt Gold Cup, but never a military .45 before.
The serial number is 1328xxx, which from what I can find online appears to be 1943 vintage. Hopefully someone can confirm this? The gun was owned by a Navy Commander from Puget Sound Shipyard who shot it at Camp Perry in the 1950's, so it was modified by a Naavy armorer to Camp Perry specs. It's basically all matching, and parkerized, but is fitted with target sights, a 1911 serrated flat mainspring housing, trigger shoe, and blued slide release and safety.
The gun shoots better than my Gold Cup, and is extremely tight, but very reliable too. In addition to the gun, it came with 11 magazines, and a 1965 dated Colt conversion for .22LR. In the box with all the papers.





Have the owner's name, but don't know if Camp Perry kept records of match attendees?

 

[Drail]

The NRA might be able to find those records. Call them and ask. That's a cool gun. Camp Perry is incredible. Firing with one hand at 50 yard targets. Do you plan to shoot it or put it in a display case?

 

[mm93]

The NRA might be able to find those records. Call them and ask. That's a cool gun. Camp Perry is incredible. Firing with one hand at 50 yard targets. Do you plan to shoot it or put it in a display case?

I have shot it when I was looking at it, as there was a range available on his property. I shot bullseye about 20 years ago, and my eyes are still pretty decent. I fired at his 50 yd. target and put 8 rds. in a 2" group one hand unsupported. I then loaded another clip and put 8 shots on his 150 yd. dinger, which is a 30" tall, 15" wide plate. It is a sweetheart to shoot, and I will be shooting it, although careful to not do any harm to it.
I want to try the Colt conversion also. It's unfired, and shows no sign of ever being installed, but I'd like to try it. Sure it wont shoot with my Supermatic Citation, but hope it shoots well.

 

[FL-NC]

Very nice. I was issued a Remington-Rand 1911A1 many moons ago. I held out from buying a GI gun until I located a R-R. I would be tempted to replace the sights and other altered parts with original GI ones just because.

 

[Monac]

Very nice. I was issued a Remington-Rand 1911A1 many moons ago. I held out from buying a GI gun until I located a R-R. I would be tempted to replace the sights and other altered parts with original GI ones just because.

That was my first impulse too, FL-NC, but given that this gun was shot this way at Camp Perry, I would leave it as is. This is part of history too.

 

[bannockburn]

mm93

Very nice acquisition, especially with all the extras done to the pistol, the Colt Ace .22 conversion unit, and the history behind the previous owner.

I would have to say you've done very well for your first Remington-Rand M1911A1!

 

[mm93]

I would never consider changing anything on this 1911A1 just because I was close friends with the owner's son and the history of it being used at Camp Perry is too important to me. Even if the value would increase by returning it to original, it wouldn't be an option for me.
I have no real attachment to the Ace Conversion, but since it's been with this gun since new, and purchased by the owner; it too will stay with the gun. I love firearms with history, and prefer to not mess with history.

 

[Drail]

It certainly looks like it has seen some history.

 

[mm93]

It certainly looks like it has seen some history.

The serial number dates it to 1943, so possibly some WWII use, but not likely much in the condition it is in. It's extremely tight, but I'm told armorers tightened up every gun used on their pistol team. This one was used by my friend's father on the Navy team at Camp Perry, but is US Army marked. I assume that the guns went to whoever needed one back when they were prepped to use in matches? Not sure if Navy had their own guns marked US Navy either?

 

[Jim Watson]

Not since before WW I.

The Springfield Armory National Match and Air Force Premium Grade guns are pretty well characterized but what a unit armorer might flange up for his outfit's team was not standardized.

Does yours have any drawing numbers on barrel and bushing?

 

[bannockburn]

mm93

From what I could find starting in 1954 through 1967, the Army had their own Marksmanship unit which used the Army's Springfield Armory to build their National Match pistols. They had Colt slides and had custom fitted barrels, bushings, triggers, and sights. Beginning in 1959 they began to use Micro adjustable sights.

The Air Force Marksmanship School began in 1960 and turned out Match grade pistols just like the Army had. Sometimes they rebuilt Army National Match pistols or else utilized earlier Colt Gold Cups for their conversions. Their pistols were called Air Force Premium Grade.

There's an excellent article at usnmt.org about the history of the U.S. Navy Marksmanship Team. According to the article in the 1960s the Air Force was responsible for running the Interservice pistol matches, the Navy and Marines handled the rifle matches, and the Army ran the International competitions, using the top shooters in every branch to represent the U.S. Armed Forces. Unfortunately I could find no reference as to the pistols the Navy shooters used to compete with.

 

[Slamfire]

New here, and my first post. So thanks ahead of the question!

I just picked up a Remington_Rand 1911A1, and my first 1911A1 also. I've had series 70 and 80 Colts and Colt Gold Cup, but never a military .45 before.
The serial number is 1328xxx, which from what I can find online appears to be 1943 vintage. Hopefully someone can confirm this? The gun was owned by a Navy Commander from Puget Sound Shipyard who shot it at Camp Perry in the 1950's, so it was modified by a Naavy armorer to Camp Perry specs. It's basically all matching, and parkerized, but is fitted with target sights, a 1911 serrated flat mainspring housing, trigger shoe, and blued slide release and safety.
The gun shoots better than my Gold Cup, and is extremely tight, but very reliable too. In addition to the gun, it came with 11 magazines, and a 1965 dated Colt conversion for .22LR. In the box with all the papers.

View attachment 805450

View attachment 805451

Have the owner's name, but don't know if Camp Perry kept records of match attendees?

The NRA used to put out paper match bulletins (more like booklets) with the names of every shooter and their home addresses. I think they stopped that practice after the turn of the century.

Your pistol looks like the typical Bullseye pistol of the era, specifically the tall sights. The original owner could have purchased a Gold Cup, but probably decided to buy a used surplus pistol and turn it over to a gunsmith to build into a Bullseye Competition pistol. There were lots of gunsmiths who could do this, the Army Reserve "All Guard" is still rebuilding WW2 era M1911's and issuing them to their team members.



The amount of hand work involved in building a target grade M1911 from a military surplus pistol is cost prohibitive. Economically it no longer makes sense as WW2 era pistols are now collector items. But even then, the tolerances on modern pistols are so good, the slide to rail fittings are excellent in many off the shelf pistols. Back then, the frame rails were peened, which made them over sized. The slide rails were then coated with grinding compound, and then the slide was beat over the frame, grinding both down. At some level of tightness, the gunsmith stopped beating the slide back and forth. It worked, but if there was any case on the surfaces, it was removed. I don't think these pistols had any surface hardness treatments, and they would wear out in time.

Your pistol, if it was set up for standard Bullseye, probably has a light recoil spring, like a 12 lb spring. If you plan to shoot hardball, put in a 16 lb or 18 lb recoil spring or you will beat the pistol all to heck. Also, the saying was your elbow is the drip point. These hand fitted Bullseye pistols were meant to be run wet, real wet. I see some Bullseye shooters lubricating the barrel ends every ten shots. A drop of oil on the outside of the barrel, to keep the wear from the barrel bushing down. They also frequently lubricate the slide rails. The hammer and sear notches are very delicate in these pistols, put a drop of oil down there. I knew guys who held the hammer back, as the slide dropped, to avoid damaging their trigger job.

I would recommend shooting your pistol with target loads. An excellent one is a 200 LSWC (H&G type 68) with 4.0 grains of Bullseye for 50 yards, and a common load for 25 yard timed fire and rapid fire was 3.5 grains Bullseye. You would need a 12 lb recoil spring for function reliability.

 

[PWC]

Why would you think returning it to original GI would enhance its value? It was 'made' for what it is. History adds to $$ and intrinsic value as is.

 

[Archie]

As a collector, I suggest finding some documentation showing the history of the pistol. Being able to prove this was an issue gun altered to a match pistol will be quite desirable to one who collects such things. The 'trick' is to find the interested person or persons. Gun Shows are generally fair places to start, but be careful with vendors. They all want to make money on both ends of a deal; they will offer you less than market value as they have to make a profit, then sell it for more than market value as they paid a lot for it. Pawn shops are worse, usually. Fixed gun shops are hard to predict.

Perhaps check around on some of the auction sites for comparisons - which will not be plentiful. And don't confuse the sorts of match guns with each other.

I suggest NOT changing it 'back to origin'. That would make it a really nice collectable M1911A1 which has been altered to no discernible end. In other words, "bubba'd".

 

[murf]

I have shot it when I was looking at it, as there was a range available on his property. I shot bullseye about 20 years ago, and my eyes are still pretty decent. I fired at his 50 yd. target and put 8 rds. in a 2" group one hand unsupported. I then loaded another clip and put 8 shots on his 150 yd. dinger, which is a 30" tall, 15" wide plate. It is a sweetheart to shoot, and I will be shooting it, although careful to not do any harm to it.
I want to try the Colt conversion also. It's unfired, and shows no sign of ever being installed, but I'd like to try it. Sure it wont shoot with my Supermatic Citation, but hope it shoots well.

eight shots in the x-ring offhand at 50 yards is beyond fantastic, especially offhand. you should take that gun back to camp perry next year and set some records: https://competitions.nra.org/results-and-records/national-records/

murf

 

[mm93]

Thanks for all the comments and ideas. I don't plan to sell this gun, so value isn't too relevant to me. It might be interesting to know, but certainly not for sale.
I used 185 gr. and 200 gr. SWC cast lead loads in my S&W 745 IPSC that I shot in bullseye matches, so I'll give those a try to see if they are warm enough to cycle the slide. My understanding was that Camp Perry match rules required some minimum velocity of the ammunition used, and the loads were not as mild as usual bullseye ammunition used in regional or local matches? My loads for the 745 were only 650 fps, and S&W sent me 4 different recoil springs for my 745 so I could tailor my springs to my loads.
Haven't broken down the gun to look at all the markings yet. Had a friend who is a military 1911 collector look it over and he told me it's matching slide and frame, but has been fitted with a 1911 flat mainspring housing, vs. the curved original 1911A1 housing. He said that was fairly common that shooters preferred flat housings.
The gun also came with 3 extra barrels, and two extra bushings. Along with 11 magazines of various makers. One is an original lanyard type mag, while others are marked with "S", "R", "Colt" or no markings. Not sure why so many mags, but assume he had access to a free supply and just owned plenty of them. At some point soon I'll strip it down to look at it internally, and check the extra barrels just to see how they fit. But I'll keep track of the barrel on the gun now to ensure it stays in the gun later.
Thanks again.

 

[Jim Watson]

An interesting package.

Extra barrels, if of period manufacture, are worth a tidy sum. Identifying markings will tell the tale.

That many magazines are probably as you said, accumulation by availability. You only need one magazine and a spare for target shooting. Some USGI magazines are themselves collectables.

There were four guns for Camp Perry in those days; smallbore (.22), centerfire (.32 or larger), bigbore (.45) and service pistol (.45 hardball.)
Ammunition power was not specified for any but the service pistol which had to shoot hardball. The .45 "wad gun" is loaded down pretty light.
The Air Force Premium Grade will be stamped "W" if throated and sprung for semiwadcutters.

Once upon a time, it was traditional to shoot .38 Special either in a revolver or a converted .38 Super auto for centerfire, but people realized that a light loaded .45 as used in bigbore would save them a lot of money and familiarization time.

 

[murf]

Once upon a time, it was traditional to shoot .38 Special either in a revolver or a converted .38 Super auto for centerfire, but people realized that a light loaded .45 as used in bigbore would save them a lot of money and familiarization time.

and cut bigger holes in the target for higher scores!

murf

 

[Slamfire]

Once upon a time, it was traditional to shoot .38 Special either in a revolver or a converted .38 Super auto for centerfire, but people realized that a light loaded .45 as used in bigbore would save them a lot of money and familiarization time.

Occasionally I see a shooter with something like a Pardini and shooting a 32 S&W Long in centerfire, and then changing the upper to 45 ACP. I have asked around, there have been periods where shooters were trying 9mm's, 38 Specials, but having a third pistol to clean is a bother. Then if it has a grip frame different from the 1911, it takes an adjustment time to get used to it, and you are flinging shots. Some very good shooters are using a 22lr upper on a 1911 frame so they have the same grip and trigger pull geometry all the way through the match. I have been playing with 9mm during the centerfire stage and my scores are worse than with the 45 ACP, so, I may stop that soon.

 

[mm93]

When I started out in bullseye most the guys I saw shooting used just two guns. A semiauto .22RF and a .45 for all other stages. Some guys with a bit more money, or more serious had a dedicated centerfire for the "any centerfire .32 or larger" part of the matches. I used a Hi Standard Supermatic Citation for .22 and my IPSC S&W for both of the CF matches. They allowed me to reach Master Class, but eventually I decided to get more serious guns for .22 and any CF matches. I bought a Beeman Unique ISU 69 for .22, and a S&W Model 52 .38 Wadcutter for my any CF. Kept the IPSC for .45 shoots. The Citation, and the two S&W both were stocked with target grips that were custom built for me. But those grips are set aside now, and I use the factory grips for casual shooting.
I didn't really see any big increase in my overall average scores, although my any CF scores did improve with the S&W 52 .38 Special. But I did notice my slow fire scores got better in .22 with the Beeman, and got more 98-100 scores with the Unique. Probably more due to the way the gun fit me than accuracy, as the Citation was as accurate benched as the Unique was.
When I stopped competing I sold the Unique to a fellow shooter, and the S&W 52 to another shooter. I kept the 745 IPSC and the Hi Standard Citation, and still shoot them casually. The 1911A1 will see the same casual use. I've had my fun competing, and now just shoot for my own enjoyment.

 

[mm93]

Once upon a time, it was traditional to shoot .38 Special either in a revolver or a converted .38 Super auto for centerfire, but people realized that a light loaded .45 as used in bigbore would save them a lot of money and familiarization time.

I also tried a revolver in the "any CF" class, and it was a highly modified S&W .38 Spl. with heavy bull barrel, Herretts grips, and a Davis rib with target sights. It worked excellent for slow and timed fire, as I could cock it for slow fire, and very carefully pull through the DA trigger on timed fire. But it fell down in rapid fire trying to roll through the 5 shots in 10 seconds using DA only. The gun had a spectacular DA pull, and SA pull was under 2 lbs., but it wasn't easy to DA the trigger and stay on target as easily in rapid fire as my semiauto pistols were. It got replaced with the 52 in .38 wadcutter, and rapid fire scores of 100's were more common in the 52.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I've carried a Remington-Rand M1911A1 many a mile, through some really nasty country.

 

[mm93]

Just went over the 3 spare barrels, and I see no markings on any of them. I put my micrometer on the bushing diameter of each to measure, and came up with 3 different diameters. Not sure what that means, but they are .579", .5795", and .580" diameters.

 

[Slamfire]

I used a Hi Standard Supermatic Citation

I have only seen a few High Standard's on the firing line, parts availability seems to be a major factor. If you bought lots of magazines, you may have a pile of stamped sheet metal, the value of, is close to silver, in terms of dollars per ounce.

 

[Jim Watson]

I just bought three HS magazines from the rump organization in Texas.
Test firing later this week, if these three feed, it will give me five and I can conveniently shoot my HS in Steel Challenge. I have a scope and a red dot for it. The M41 and maybe the Nelson, when it's extra mags arrive, will remain my iron sight guns. I mostly shoot Rimfire at SC.

I wonder about the PO's unmarked .45 barrels.