1911s: why safer cocked and locked?
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cornbread2
member
The safety conserns about the 1911 on this thread involves drop safety and ADs.
It has nothing to do with NDs. Guns fire if the trigger is pulled. They have been made that way for hundreds of years.
An AD has NOTHING to do with a trigger pull light or heavy.
An AD has happened when a firearm fires WITHOUT a trigger pull.
Do 1911s have ADs? Useally not unless some moron carries it on half cock and drops it on the hammer. 1911 have built in safety features that are designed to prevent an AD if one carries it in the correct mode.
Do others guns have ADs. Yes some do. Most do not.
Single action striker fired autos such a Jennings, Bryco and such do.
An old style Colt SAA type revolvers will if one drops it on the hammer if it has a round under the hammer. That is why they are carried with only 5 rounds in the cylinder with an empty chamber under the hammer.
Some modern hunting rifles and shotguns have done so.
It has nothing to do with NDs. Guns fire if the trigger is pulled. They have been made that way for hundreds of years.
An AD has NOTHING to do with a trigger pull light or heavy.
An AD has happened when a firearm fires WITHOUT a trigger pull.
Do 1911s have ADs? Useally not unless some moron carries it on half cock and drops it on the hammer. 1911 have built in safety features that are designed to prevent an AD if one carries it in the correct mode.
Do others guns have ADs. Yes some do. Most do not.
Single action striker fired autos such a Jennings, Bryco and such do.
An old style Colt SAA type revolvers will if one drops it on the hammer if it has a round under the hammer. That is why they are carried with only 5 rounds in the cylinder with an empty chamber under the hammer.
Some modern hunting rifles and shotguns have done so.
BluesBear
member
Anyone who has had much experience using older 1911 pattern pistols knows that those old long, wide, checkered hammers are very easy to thumbcock and uncock.
The Commander hammer as well as the newer style elongated ring hammers are a lot more difficult to cock and uncock.
The original 1911 hammer is not any harder to cock or uncock than a good revolver hammer.
My Government model is C&L when it is on my person. When it is in the safe or in the desk drawer next to the computer it is hammer down on a loaded chamber. OF course all of my 1911 pattern pistols have those old wonderful wide hammers on them. I even continue to buy extras for back up and future purchases.
Just my tuppence, I know many will disagree but it works mighty fine for me, YMMV.
etided fro speeling
The Commander hammer as well as the newer style elongated ring hammers are a lot more difficult to cock and uncock.
The original 1911 hammer is not any harder to cock or uncock than a good revolver hammer.
My Government model is C&L when it is on my person. When it is in the safe or in the desk drawer next to the computer it is hammer down on a loaded chamber. OF course all of my 1911 pattern pistols have those old wonderful wide hammers on them. I even continue to buy extras for back up and future purchases.
Just my tuppence, I know many will disagree but it works mighty fine for me, YMMV.
etided fro speeling
Last edited:
Mute
Member
Geez! Numbnuts must really hate power drills then.
cornbread2
member
Even the great Jeff Cooper one wrote that he does not always keep his 1911 cocked and locked.
He once wrote than while in the field he slept in a sleeping bag with his 1911 on a lynard around his neck with the pistol hammer down on a loaded chamber.
He wrote that he did not trust "sleepy hands" on a cocked pistol.
I would bet this old fellow did not shoot off any toes decocking the pistol.
He once wrote than while in the field he slept in a sleeping bag with his 1911 on a lynard around his neck with the pistol hammer down on a loaded chamber.
He wrote that he did not trust "sleepy hands" on a cocked pistol.
I would bet this old fellow did not shoot off any toes decocking the pistol.
ClarkEMyers
Member
It does happen
I wasn't there but I do credit reports of a cocked and locked 1911 in the holster firing on contact with the edge of a desk, nobody's hand near. Also the story of a Goldcup with its wide trigger being forced into a strongly boned holster for the narrow trigger/GI sight - bang!
That's why some departments used to forbid trigger shoes on double action revolvers for duty carry.
I believe the story of the new model Ruger Blackhawk loaded more or less safely 5 cartridges with an empty under the hammer in an open top holster on a horseman pushing through brush. The story goes that a twig pushed the hammer far enough back to advance the cylinder then the twig functioned as a transfer bar when the hammer fell forward presumably never having properly seated full cock on the notch.
There was a case in Lewiston Idaho 20 odd years ago of a reported accidental discharge with an old model Bearcat - the jury more or less decided happened to the right guy no award - I have to credit one expert of my personal acquaintance who said it was a gun ( worn lockwork?) failure that it fired (it was operator failure that it wasn't harmless)
Bill Ruger guns are at least as safe as anybody's.
Elmer Keith said "haven't had an accident yet" one in a million chances happen every day to somebody.
I wasn't there but I do credit reports of a cocked and locked 1911 in the holster firing on contact with the edge of a desk, nobody's hand near. Also the story of a Goldcup with its wide trigger being forced into a strongly boned holster for the narrow trigger/GI sight - bang!
That's why some departments used to forbid trigger shoes on double action revolvers for duty carry.
I believe the story of the new model Ruger Blackhawk loaded more or less safely 5 cartridges with an empty under the hammer in an open top holster on a horseman pushing through brush. The story goes that a twig pushed the hammer far enough back to advance the cylinder then the twig functioned as a transfer bar when the hammer fell forward presumably never having properly seated full cock on the notch.
There was a case in Lewiston Idaho 20 odd years ago of a reported accidental discharge with an old model Bearcat - the jury more or less decided happened to the right guy no award - I have to credit one expert of my personal acquaintance who said it was a gun ( worn lockwork?) failure that it fired (it was operator failure that it wasn't harmless)
Bill Ruger guns are at least as safe as anybody's.
Elmer Keith said "haven't had an accident yet" one in a million chances happen every day to somebody.
45crittergitter
Member
What happens if the business end of the sear breaks off while it's cocked and locked? Nothing to hold the hammer or catch the half-cock.... Does the manual safety only block the sear? If so, and the sear breaks....
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Broken Sear
crittergitter asked:
What happens if the business end of the sear breaks off while it's cocked and locked.
The half-cock will still stop it. Go back and read the post on my experiment.
I removed about 1/8th inch from the top of the sear to check it. It even
caught the hammer hooks and held at full cock. I had to grind off the hammer hooks so I could get the hammer to fall to half-cock.
Cheers!
Tuner
crittergitter asked:
What happens if the business end of the sear breaks off while it's cocked and locked.
The half-cock will still stop it. Go back and read the post on my experiment.
I removed about 1/8th inch from the top of the sear to check it. It even
caught the hammer hooks and held at full cock. I had to grind off the hammer hooks so I could get the hammer to fall to half-cock.
Cheers!
Tuner
http://www.sightm1911.com/ this is a good sight to find out about 1911's. somewhere in this site is what sold me about c&l carry. it reads if the sear and hammer notches were to fail, and the safety is on, the hammer still cannot move foward to strike the firing pin. the safety physically gets in the way of the hammer on the way down. condition 1 seems pretty fool proof to me once you understand the interaction of all the parts of the safety mechanism.
What do we mean by “cocked and locked� The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks†the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged. You can assemble the weapon with no sear at all and cock the hammer and engage the safety and it can't hit the firing pin because of the stud. Multiple redundancy!
this is a quote from the link i posted above The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged. that statement is the key to condition 1 safety to me
http://www.sightm1911.com/
this is a quote from the link i posted above The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged. that statement is the key to condition 1 safety to me
http://www.sightm1911.com/
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Stud
SW9mm said:
this is a quote from the link i posted above The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
It's true that it's designed to impede the hammer, but I wouldn't bet a lotta
long green on all of'em actually stoppin' it. In about half the ones that I've examined, the falling hammer will push the safety off and into the fire position. It will, however, impede the hammer enough to prevent a discharge. It doesn't matter at any rate. The half-cock will stop the hammer before it can get to that point, even if the sear breaks, unless it
shatters into pieces.
Cheers!
Tuner
SW9mm said:
this is a quote from the link i posted above The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
It's true that it's designed to impede the hammer, but I wouldn't bet a lotta
long green on all of'em actually stoppin' it. In about half the ones that I've examined, the falling hammer will push the safety off and into the fire position. It will, however, impede the hammer enough to prevent a discharge. It doesn't matter at any rate. The half-cock will stop the hammer before it can get to that point, even if the sear breaks, unless it
shatters into pieces.
Cheers!
Tuner
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The Key
SW9mm said:
by being the key i meant if all the others weren't enough already here was another one i hadn't known before. i thought to myself this condition one thing is a no brainer safety wise.
Ay-greed! And if there wasn't enough, Colt added yet another one
with the Series 80s. Many don't like the Series 80 pistols, but I like'the
extra-extra security, even though I know I don't need it. Can't stand to
lose any meat offa my old skinny as it is.
As has been noted through the years. Seeing that hammer at full cock
unnerves some people. The ones who understand it simply smile when they see a 1911 in Con-1. It's as safe as YOU are, or to quote a Rusky...
...eet eez a GON! eet eez NOT safe!
Cheers!
Tuner
SW9mm said:
by being the key i meant if all the others weren't enough already here was another one i hadn't known before. i thought to myself this condition one thing is a no brainer safety wise.
Ay-greed! And if there wasn't enough, Colt added yet another one
with the Series 80s. Many don't like the Series 80 pistols, but I like'the
extra-extra security, even though I know I don't need it. Can't stand to
lose any meat offa my old skinny as it is.
As has been noted through the years. Seeing that hammer at full cock
unnerves some people. The ones who understand it simply smile when they see a 1911 in Con-1. It's as safe as YOU are, or to quote a Rusky...
...eet eez a GON! eet eez NOT safe!
Cheers!
Tuner
45crittergitter
Member
Thanks much, 1911 and SW9!
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