22LR from a different angle.

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I have thought a lot about this "survival" business and the problem becomes obvious quite quickly. There is no one single firearm that can meet all the needs one hears expressed for such a gun.

If your desire is to live off the land then an accurate 22 is best. You will shoot more small game than large animals. Ammo is compact and light so more of it can be packed. But for defense against large and dangerous animals or marauding humans it is found wanting.

A compact rifle is a possibility, but I think a shotgun makes more sense. Remember, we are supposed to be discussing survival, as in food gathering with defensive use a secondary consideration. Nothing is more versatile for hunting than is the scattergun. With bird shot fowl and small animals may be harvested. Slugs can take big animals at close range and slugs and buck shot are very effective as defensive loads.

The most compact shotgun I have is a SxS "Coach Gun" with 20" barrels. Carry bird, buck and slug loads and one is ready for anything that walks, crawls or flies. Mine has some sort of exotic wood that is much lighter than walnut. If a fiberglass stock were available it would work even better. As is, the gun is so light as to be unpleasant to shoot. But that's good for packing in the field.

So, here's my nomination for general purpose "survival gun." I added sling swivels and I have a sling with 20 loops for shells. I can carry 12 bird shot loads, 4 buck and 4 slug shells in the sling making it capable of taking just about anything I might encounter. Thus equipped I could grab the gun with ammo loaded sling and have all I need for a short term operation in one hand without fumbling for an ammo carrier.


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Without adding too much bulk and weight I could add a target grade 22 pistol and be truly prepared for roughing it in the wild. This Ruger can easily pop squirrels and rabbits at 30 yards and keep the pot filled.


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There is the old Townsend Whelen trick of handloading a full powered rifle cartridge with a short bullet at flea flicker velocity, for small game.

That still gives you much more ammo weight and bulk than a .22. That is a huge drawback.

But there are some very light centerfire rifles available. (Kimber 84M, Remington Model 7, or whatever you like.) The top round in the magazine is the flea flicker. Underneath it are full powered loads. When hunting small game you top off after each shot, replacing the top round with another low powered job. (Neglect this detail and there will not be much squirrel in your squirrel stew.)

Another difficulty is the sights--if you are lucky they will still be approximately correct for deflection, but elevation will be anybody's guess. This will call for trial and error. Do you reset the sights for each load, or hold off?

Hmm. Well, perhaps it is not the best idea T.W. ever had. Maybe the .22 our intrepid aviator wants, plus a big can of bear spray?
 
Collin,

City slicker!! That hurt brother ;^) Go to your man cave grab a brick. I bet you can get it in one of your front pockets. I wear dickies & can. Not saying its ideal, just you could if had to.

BTW, how'd you know I live in Sandpoint?
 
Also, Saxon, though we've had differences in the past, I like the shotgun & pistol combo. What's your thoughts on this. Instead of a sxs, how about Winchester 1300 defender? 8 shots staggered. Walking through trees, spot a deer. Pump pump out bird shot etc, bang Buck shot, slug etc. Now with your sling, you have 28 shells & 8 ready to go without much more weight.
 
I have always been leary of rimfire semi's, maybe it was just bad luck with jamo-matics as a kid.

I also like bolt action for the cb shorts which are vey quiet for discrete protein aquisition. I have built/designed a solar powered charger for LiFePO4 batteries that literally last a lifetime with these new Cree LED flashlights, properly mounting the light to this Savage rifle would be the final peice of the puzzel for my survival rifle. I think the new high powered LED flashlights along with a rimfire will be very useful for fighting starvation.

But probably the ultimate setup would be a ruger 10/22 5"-9" SBR, with a custom folding skeleton stock, along with a suppressor.

I have wondered how hard it would be to DIY a setup like this. I have a good understanding of how to get an SBR stamp but unsure of the suppresor in my state. Just gets expensive I guess.


The other option I guess are the MKIII pistols, silenced, and then hold the flashlight underneath.

I can see no need at all for a shotgun, I mean the ammo cost is just crazy, the bulk of it to carry around, it won't go far. I mean the shotgun was developed (should say blossomed) for the rich european game hunters, not survivalists.
 
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City slicker!! That hurt brother ;^) Go to your man cave grab a brick. I bet you can get it in one of your front pockets. I wear dickies & can. Not saying its ideal, just you could if had to.

Actually, that was someone else questioning the size of your pockets... I figure that with anything other than tight fitting jeans, you should be able to put a brick of .22LRs in your pocket if you take them out of the boxes...

BTW, how'd you know I live in Sandpoint?

A moose told me... He also said that he took a dump in your front yard...:)
 
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Also, Saxon, though we've had differences in the past, I like the shotgun & pistol combo. What's your thoughts on this. Instead of a sxs, how about Winchester 1300 defender? 8 shots staggered. Walking through trees, spot a deer. Pump pump out bird shot etc, bang Buck shot, slug etc. Now with your sling, you have 28 shells & 8 ready to go without much more weight.
The Winchester 1300 "Defender" is pretty compact... I've got one... If you are shooting at any distance or at birds on the wing, I would suggest getting a buttstock for it.

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Oh, and don't try to shoot one with just one hand... It will definitely give you a rather sore wrist...
 
.410

One more time... about the M6, as marketed in recent years by Springfield Armory:
They have a .22 barrel on top and a .410 shotshell / .45LC barrel on the bottom.

No. That is a .410" smoothbore cylinder choked barrel. You do not want to shoot .452" diameter slugs down a .410" bore. In fact, my M6 will not even chamber a .45 Colt cartridge.
Pete
 
Float Pilot said:
I weighed some cartridges that were in my office desk with a digital scale.

I wish I had that opportunity at my office desk. :)

You could also look at a Savage model 24. I think you can get .22, .357, or .223 over a 20 or 12 gauge shotgun barrel

Here's one at Bud's. That is, if they're still making them.
 
K-Rod- Certainly a pistol gripped shotgun is compact but not a good choice for accurate shooting and remember hunting is the primary consideration. With a full stock no pump is as compact as the double due to the length of the pump's receiver. The double gives two shots as fast as one can pull the trigger. Should do.
 
Float Pilot.
That required survival gear seems like an awful heavy addition to an already loaded up aircraft!
Wool blankets and a weeks worth of rations per person!
Snowshoes too!
What does Alaska consider a weeks worth of rations and does that also require water to be carried as well??
No flippin' wonder Alaske recommends but doesn't require a survival firearm onboard!:eek:
 
I have a Savage 24 in 22 mag over 20 guage. I could easily make use of it for a survival weapon a box of 22 mags and an assortment of 20 guage shells I'd be GTG.
IMHO survival skill will trump equipment as there are many other guns I'd feel confident in as well.
 
I was referring to the one I have with wood furniture. I didn't even consider a pistol grip. I don't think a pistol grip shotgun would be very easy to shoot accurately.
 
I think an O/U .460S&W/.410 and .22LR would be darn near ideal. It affords the survivalist the option to shoot .460S&W (as well as .45LC & .454Casull in a pinch), .410, and .22LR out of a single compact, lightweight, reliable firearm. With which you should be able to harvest most any game species native to NA, and have adequate defense from most anything (a secondary concern IMO). A 20Ga/.22LR gets close, but gives up a bit of versatility.

:)
 
I honestly wouldn't go any above a 22 Hornet for a survival gun.

When space or weight is premium, and you are not bound by feel-good hunting regulations, a .22Mag or 22 Hornet is all you really need to take just about anything.

BTW: I weighed up a bunch of cartridges myself last night, and a .22 Mag is only 60 some grains in weight. You would think it more by looking at it, but it's really very close in weight. The additional 300FPS seems worth it to me, especially if you are going to be taking some questionable shots in a survival situation.

I carry my Stevens 1915 take down .22 single shot when I need a light pack rifle. When I want a handgun, I carry my FN 5.7 - I used to carry my Ruger MKIII standard, but the FN weighs and entire pound less, holds twice as many rounds, is capable of taking larger game, and has a much flatter trajectory. It's a win all around from a weight Vs. firepower standpoint.

If I were looking for a dedicated "survival rifle", my first and last stop would be a TC Encore with a folding stock and a minimum length barrel in either 22 Hornet or 5.7x28. Small game out past 100 yards with ease, and deer or hogs out to 50 yards with head shots. It would fold up / disassemble into a tiny little pack, and wight very little.
 
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Not that I would want to actually be faced with the situation -- but I've wondered how my stainless steel T/C Contender with 14" .22LR match barrel and 4x scope would fare as a survival gun. Perhaps a little heavy for what it is, but it's rugged as heck, clover-leaf accurate from a rest, and utterly reliable for one shot (and would never jam on me... :D ).

I have a folding Choate shoulder stock for it in the instances where I also attach a 16+" carbine barrel. It's a shame that federal restrictions preclude me from mating the shoulder stock with the 14" barrel -- it would make for a phenomenally compact yet accurate firearm.


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I'm really amazed that nobody has mentioned the Marlin model 70P (or 70PSS) Papoose.

22 LR, 7 round magazine (also takes the 10 round 795 mags), breaks down, weighs like 4.5 pounds. Very accurate. More so than any pistol.

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If I were in a survival situation I want MY Papoose with me.
 
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Nor has anyone mentioned the take-down Browning 22 or the Chinese copy...Both of which are very light and very accurate.
Insert Twilight Zone Theme here....

Are there any spaces in the butt-stock of your Papoose?
 
Are there any spaces in the butt-stock of your Papoose?

No. :(

That's about it's only real flaw with the Papoose. It would have been nice if they made the stock so you could store the barrel inside like the AR-7.

Edit: Dang. That has me thinking. I can mill out a cavity in the butt end. At least big enough to store possibly up to 50 rounds of ammo. Have to think about how to make the door for the buttplate secure but easy enough to release in a hurry.
 
I agree with a small .22LR rifle as being the ticket. The .22 WMR has more power, but uses jacketed bullets which won't protect the bore like (all) waxed .22LR rounds do. That could be a problem in wet conditions and makes the .22LR such a great survival round.

A peep sight with a large aperture can provide a bit better accuracy than open rear sights.

CCI Mini-Mags and Stingers are great rounds and have hard wax coatings that won't be a problem when carried loose in pants or coat pockets.
 
The 22 lr over 460 S&W/410 is a very interesting thought. However, the 460 S&W is a very high pressure cartridge (65,000 psi). The action and barrel would have to be of substantial construction to handle the 460 loads.

On carrying a birdshot load in the chamber with slug loads for deer further down in the magazine: Your deer must be a good deal more calm and slower moving than the ones I jump while talking walks in the woods....
 
The 22 lr over 460 S&W/410 is a very interesting thought.
IMHO the 22/20 guage that are avaliable every where now would be just as good look at the ballistics of some of the new sabot slugs IE winchesters 260gr partition gold is going 1900fps compared to Federals 275gr barnes going 1840. very close and 20g birdshot is way better than 410 IMHO.

Nor has anyone mentioned the take-down Browning 22 or the Chinese copy
Yep that and a big bore revolver on my hip would work too.
 
Nobody mentions the Nylon 66? 4.5lbs and the ammo is stored in the buttstock because that's where the magazine is located. I love mine! :)
 
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