25 round 10/22 mag in Cal?

[howelljeffrey]

I have a 25 round mag for my 10/22 that I like to use at the range. I know the law is nothing over 10 rounds in California but recently someone told me it would be a felony if I were "caught". The rangemaster says it's okay as long as there is no rapid fire...can someone knowledgable give me the scoop?

 

[ArtP]

The punishment can be a felony. This I am certain of. Personally, I am unwilling to take a risk for such a small gain that could cause my permanent loss of gun rights.

I believe (maybe double check) that they would have to prove you bought/imported the mag into CA after the ban, which is year 2000. If your mag was introduced to market in 2000 or after, this could be easy to prove. I have a 9mm that I purchased in the early 90's that holds more than 10, it is legal and grandfathered in.

The key here is the state must prove you imported the mag into the state after the law went into affect. I have another potential hi-cap pistol. That is, it is capable of using a 13 round mag, but was sold with a 10 round mag. It was introduced in the mid 2000's and if I imported and were caught with the hi-cap magazine, I'd be in big trouble because I could not claim I had it pre-ban - impossible.

I have heard from a reliable source, recently, that CA has not yet prosecuted anyone for a having a hi-cap mag, even though the law went into affect in the year 2000.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

If you possessed the Hi-Cap magazine in the state of California before the law took effect, then you are Okay.

 

[FenderTK421]

I would be careful just because this is Ca. In my experience you are often guilty til proven innocent in that State. You MAY believe that the state would have to prove the mag was post ban. I believe YOU would have to prove the mag was PRE-ban.

 

[Old Shooter]

Without a receipt, how is either paty going to prove their point?

Unless that item was not produced and marketed until after the ban began is there any way to prove it's age?

Regarding "Grandfathered" items, are they identified in any way?

Stamped or marked in some manner to prove their legality?

Does California require them to be registered?

 

[danez71]

Without a receipt, how is either paty going to prove their point?

Unless that item was not produced and marketed until after the ban began is there any way to prove it's age?

Regarding "Grandfathered" items, are they identified in any way?

Stamped or marked in some manner to prove their legality?

Does California require them to be registered?

(Fender - youre not guilty untill proven innocent in CA... maybe in the media / public perception but not in court)

Oldshooter -
1) Exactly
2) S/N's, special markings etc
3) see #2
4) see #3
5) No - at least not by the person. I dont know if the mfg has to register s/n or special markings or just provide the info when requested by LE

 

[ArtP]

Regardless of this states bad reputation, the DA does have to prove you imported it, post ban. They could charge and jail you all day long, but 12 people would have to agree to your guilt for a conviction. It would be very difficult to prove, which is why no one has been convicted.

I am a pretty straigh laced guy. Once I had an issue with a neighbor/friend up the street who turned out to be having an affair with my, then, wife. I went and raised some hell and had the cops come out (no weapon btw) and site me for various misdeeds. The DA called later and tried very hard to try and get me to plead to something lesser, with some probation. I suggested they try and get 12 to see it their way. They eventually dropped everything knowing my actions would be viewed sympathetically. My point is, no matter how aggressive and unfair the local authorities may be, they still need 12 of your peers to unanimously agree about your guilt to convict.


It would be extremely difficult for the state to do, in the case of a hi-cap mag, except in my case of the product introduced to market post ban.

A grandfathered item is legal for life, unless you sell it. Because all gun transactions must go through an FFL in this state, you could not sell it with the hi-cap mag. The dealer would have to order 10 round mags to resell to the public.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Because all gun transactions must go through an FFL in this state, you could not sell it with the hi-cap mag

Unless, of course, you sell it to someone out-of-state.
Also, nothing is stopping the FFL dealer from buying your used magazines from you.

 

[sonier]

wow this is disgusting really cant have over 10 rounds after year 2000. makes me reallly sick to the stomach.

 

[sv51macross]

In the State of Ca, it is illegal to buy, import, and sell high-cap mags unless you are a law enforcement entity, security firm, or armored car service (PM Lowracer about that last one). It is, however, legal to find or possess high-cap magazines. It is also legal to repair damaged magazines to the extent of all three components (body, floorplate, follower).

 

[ArtP]

It is, however, legal to find or possess high-cap magazines.

I was aware it is legal to posses hi cap mags. I'd be very surprised if the word "find" is actually written in the law.

With my Glock 21SF, it was intruduced in the middle of this decade. If I were caught with a 13 roiund mag, I would have to say; I found it, made it, I bought it or imported it. I don't think anyone would buy that I found or made it.

If the penalty was a misdemeanor, I would take the risk - not for a felony.

 

[Zoogster]

ArtP said:

If the penalty was a misdemeanor, I would take the risk

In California most firearm related misdemeanors, and many non-firearm related misdemeanors prohibit you from owning firearms for 10 years.
If you then proceed to possess a firearm within those ten years you are a prohibited person in illegal possession, the same statute as a felon in possession.
Which results in a felony charge.

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

This can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony under California statute.
Given that discretion the prosecutor will typically choose to charge you with a felony, but not always.


There is no law on possession:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

Technically you can possess it all you want. Losing it, leaving it on the front lawn unattended, throwing it out into the middle of the street and leaving it there, leaving it in a stall at the gun range, or finding one someone else has lost or forgotten someplace is not a crime.
No matter when it was made or imported. However making it or importing it into the state after 2000 is a crime. Selling one is a crime.
If you bought it in the state it is the seller who is committing the crime. Though the purchaser could probably be charged as being part of a "conspiracy to commit" the crime or an accomplice if they can locate the seller.

So if you happen to find a high capacity magazine in California you could technically consider yourself lucky and go buy a pistol to go along with it.

 

[ArtP]

Technically you can possess it all you want. Losing it, leaving it on the front lawn unattended, throwing it out into the middle of the street and leaving it there, leaving it in a stall at the gun range, or finding one someone else has lost or forgotten someplace is not a crime.
No matter when it was made or imported. However making it or importing it into the state after 2000 is a crime. Selling one is a crime.
If you bought it in the state it is the seller who is committing the crime. Though the purchaser could probably be charged as being part of a "conspiracy to commit" the crime or an accomplice if they can locate the seller.

It's too slippery a slope for me. Though I do see your point. I have a 90's 92FS with hi-cap and have no issue. I would not have an issue with buying one today, even post-ban. It's just that my glock is '05 or so. Again, for me, too slippery.

I suppose I am acting exactly as they want me to, to be on the side of caution. Unfortunate.

 

[Zoogster]

Yeah that was not advice for a course of action, merely pointing out the specifics of the law.

Another irony is they do not appear to outlaw stealing the high capacity magazine.
Stealing a magazine would be a misdemeanor petty theft.
Say someone walks up and grabs a magazine you put down at the gun range and leaves or runs off with it. Misdemeanor petty theft.
I imagine if someone stole one from a gun shop that legally possessed them to sell to LEO it would also be petty theft.

While legally buying one and importing it into California could be a felony.
A criminal could acquire one while only committing a misdemeanor.



It is merely fun to pick at the laws sometimes and point out ironies.

 

[harmonic]

One of the problems w/"gray" areas (whether you had the mag before or after the ban) is that law enforcement officers are not particularly knowledgeable re gun laws.

And if you happen to get caught with some questionable item, some ignorant cop can make sure you're gonna have a real bad day.

 

[ArtP]

And if you happen to get caught with some questionable item, some ignorant cop can make sure you're gonna have a real bad day.

You're absolutely right. In fact, about a year ago, I called my local sheriff's dept. and posed this question to the officer answering questions that day. Essentially, he told me hi-cap mags are illegal; all of them, all the time (which I know is false). Before he would answer, he asked for my name and location, which I found intimidating. But I gave the information anyway as I had nothing to hide.

California politics are interesting and the perception the rest of the states have of us are interesting, too. Where I find the perception to be most misleading is when I read "Kaliforniastan" and other comments. It seems others think most people in California are vegetarians and take turns tree-sitting. The fact is, many or most of us are no different than any of you.

We have our conservatives and liberals just like everywhere else, in similar proportions. One difference here is the liberals have lots of money (more than the conservatives) and don't hesitate to spend it on political causes which gives the impression that most of the state is liberal. The fact is this state has voted republican in many presidential elections in the last 50 years. The liberals outspeak and outspend leading to a false perception of our population.

At a rally to ban assault weapons several years ago, one very wealthy senator (feinstien), was preaching to the crowd about assault weapons only use was to kill large amounts of people quickly. One bright individual in the crowd shouted out, "then why do the cops have them?" A hush fell over the rally. Those sorts of incidents are never broadcast by our liberal media.

 

[harmonic]

In fact, about a year ago, I called my local sheriff's dept. and posed this question to the officer answering questions that day

I hear you. I used to live there till '05 and would frequently call the local PD to find out the prescribed way to transport my weapons and ammo to the range. It was not unusual for me to call the PD and sheriff's office and nobody would know. They'd keep bumping me to somebody else. I got to where if I needed to call, I'd just call the DOJ directly.

If one of those cops (who never seemed to know the answer anyway) were to catch someone w/the above "gray areas" then that someone would have to spend some $$ to prove his innocence. When it comes to guns, in the People's Republic of California, you're guilty until proven innocent.

 

[ArtP]

When it comes to guns, in the People's Republic of California, you're guilty until proven innocent.

No, it's the Republic of KaliforniaSTAN. Why you guys like the association to countries like Pakistan and Afagnistan, I don't know - but it's pretty funny.

Where did you move to?

I live in a reletively easy county to get a CCW (lake co.) and I keep mulling over whether to apply, I've been chewing on it for a couple years. The difficulty is, though I have never been charged with anything other than a traffic ticket, I have had a couple run-ins with the sheriff over twenty years, and was put up, for free, in the sheriff's hotel for a night - never charged. That was five yers ago.

I think in that sense, I am guilty until proven innocent. But otherwise it's just like anywhere else.

I asked a police detective once, in person, what the law was regarding handgun transportation. Unlike the conception that ammo must be in a separate part of the vehicle, he stated that if you travel with a HG in a locked container, the ammo *can* be in there too, even loaded in a magazine, so long as the magazine is not touching the gun - written law supports this. That one is too slippery for me too. I do locked container on front seat, loaded magazine in backpack sitting right next to locked container. He also stated that locked containers can't be searched anyway, even with reasonable cause. Can anyone chime in on this one?

 

[harmonic]

I model it after the former Soviet Union. But, re your dilemma, since it's the sheriff who grants the CCL, and since you've got bad blood between yourself and the sheriff, and since the sheriff doesn't have to really justify his reason for turning someone down, I'd guess your chance of gettin a CCP is slim.

 

[ArtP]

I model it after the former Soviet Union. But, re your dilemma, since it's the sheriff who grants the CCL, and since you've got bad blood between yourself and the sheriff, and since the sheriff doesn't have to really justify his reason for turning someone down, I'd guess your chance of gettin a CCP is slim.

That's exactly how I see it. Since they don't need to justify a denail, they'll denie me. I spoke to a sheriff's rep over the phone about the issue. She said they generally require a squeaky clean record for three years - not even a traffic ticket. I wonder to myself, how long they frown on a drunk in public arrest, even though I wasn't charged? Ironicall, I was drunk on my own property - which is why I wasn't charged - I got cuffed inside my own house. I believe I spent the night in jail as a way for the sheriff's dept. to flex its muscle and teach a lesson that didn't need to be learned.

My ex is a ER supervisor nurse and is very friendly with the sheriff, I'm only a tax payer. After a heated telephone arguement (post divorce) she dispatched them. They didn't even ask any questions. It was a simple "hands behind your back". I had subletted part of my house and a tenent, who was niave, let them in.

The whining will cease now.

 

[harmonic]

As a veteran of a very messy divorce, I know exactly how those things happen.
Sucks all around.

 

[ArtP]

As a veteran of a very messy divorce, I know exactly how those things happen.
Sucks all around.

I suppose we both know. I touched only on the tiny tip of the iceberg. I will take "the high road" here and not go any further.

Except, my favorite statement when it comes to divorce. Men bullied and dumped on women for hundreds of years. Men today are paying the price for what our ancestors did. The price is paid with a legal system that usually significantly favors women.