2nd Amendment issue in my church

[GSonnen]

I'm looking for some wisdom here.

A little background on me: I'm 40, married, two kids, strong Christian, and strong supporter of the 2nd Ammendment (NRA lifer). I have a CHL in Texas and carry pretty much all the time. I'm very active in cowboy action shooting and compete in 2 to 3 matches a month. My kids are 6 & 8. They do plink, but are not disciplined enough to compete yet, so they usually watch and help pick brass at our monthly CAS shoots.

I've attended the same church in my hometown for almost 10 years. We attend weekly service, Bible study, & send our kids to Sunday school regularly. Last week, my son (6) got in the car after Sunday school looking pretty sad. I said 'what's wrong', my 8 year old daughter proceeded to tell us that Mrs. "Smith" (the teacher on duty for this month) verbally brow beat & repromanded my son for drawing pictures of guns. His assignment was to draw a picture of something fun he did this weekend. They day before he was at a cowboy match with me. His picture was of some cowboy shooters firing rifles at steel targets (again pretty crude crayon pics done by a 6 year old.) Mrs. "Smith" repromanded him in front of the class telling him that guns are "evil", and it is "illegal to discuss or draw them in a church". This left my 6 year old pretty confused and saddened as his mom and dad are both avid shooters.

I don't know Mrs. "Smith" well, but I called her the next day just to get the facts from her perspective. At the end of our discussion, I found her to be an old curmudgeon who is very anti-gun & anti-second ammendment, both of which she apparently gladly shares with anyone that will listen. I ended the call civilly and proceeded to call our pastor to discuss. He is pro 2nd Ammendment and regularly shoots Sporting Clays with me. He was not happy with our situation, but informed us that this was not the first time Mrs. "Smith" bestowed her personal wisdom on other church members. He spoke with her and really got no where as she feels "guns are evil and have no place in society."

My wife & I are really at a dilemma over this. We've decided that our kids should not be in the class when Mrs. "Smith" is the assigned teacher. She cycles into that position every 3 or 4 months. That really leaves us torn as we like our kids to be in Sunday school and learn about the Lord, but we are afraid of the moral direction they may get from this dear old lady. It looks like our Pastor is unable/unwilling to persue the issue any further even at our request.

Anyone have similar issues in their church? If so please share your wisdom,

Greg

 

[LarryS.]

I'd suggest holding your pastor's feet to the fire through your church structure if by no other means than talking to the deacons and other officials. If the pastor gets like feedback from other than just your family perhaps he'll come around and do the right thing. There's a chance if Mrs. "Smith" gets wind of the talk she may change her attitude and/or decide to leave. Better her than you!!
With 10 years invested, I wouldn't leave the church except as a very LAST resort.

 

[sneedb82]

Unfortunately... not the same situation.

My home church (in Lubbock) was pastored by a CHL holder, as well as an avid hunter. There are approximately 20 CHL licensees in the congregation, and no issues have ever come from any other Sunday school teachers preaching a "social" issue such as that before. I know when I taught a SS class while in attendance and member there, I spoke on several occasions to the proper use of them if we were to use them or need them, in the context of the 6th Commandment (though shalt not murder). The kids I was dealing with lived in the bad side of town and were brought in on a bus ... most kids have had experiences with EVIL uses of guns, the illegal kind.

The church we are members of now (we have moved 2 hours away from home church), is in a small town. The small town is a fairly rural, but more liberal area than previously located.

I've yet to discuss with the pastor, but he does not own a pistol, or even discusses these types of things. However, there are many individuals who hunt and use firearms, so I do not think it would be an issue.

I think that the pertinence of the "what we do for fun on the weekend" is not necessary to the use or understanding of Biblical teaching or stories. The object lessons or fun activities even for a 6 year old should be Biblical. It's always fun to talk about hobbies or what not, but I think the pastor should remove this teacher from the rotation. She obviously is more in line of teaching while in the flesh than of the Spirit. If she was of the spirit, she would NOT infringe anyone's belief of the 2nd Amendment, nor disobey the Biblical teaching of a Father teaching his son in the ways of the Lord, or anything else that happens to be perfectly legal.

Under the current law, the CHL holders can carry inside the church, and therefore not illegal unless there is a 30.06 sign posted on all entrances that the public will use at the Church. Sorry for your frustration and the lack of moral compass this sweet "saint" has. I'll keep Mrs. "SMITH" in my prayers for her conviction of the laws of the land being upheld... even while teaching a SS class.

 

[jfdavis58]

Do you think your kids are old enough to learn a little discretion: don't draw gun pictures or talk about guns in church? Certainly you've taught him/her to be discreet about other matters and what to do if that 'discretion' is violated by somebody.

Forget that advice about the pastor, his feet and fire, church doesn't/shouldn't have political boundaries. And that old bat should be just as welcome as you and your family. Church is about GOD. Christian churches are about forgiveness and inclusion despite differences in secular opinion.

Have your 'little shooter' draw pictures of the family together eating at a picnic-they do that at SASS event, right!?!?

 

[Rockwell1]

1 Timothy 5 17/20
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[c] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”[d] 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

If you have an issue with that teacher take your kids out of class when she's working. As long as her doctrine is sound and she's teaching in accordance with your denomination's standards her opinion of the second amendment is irrelevant

 

[OurSafeHome.net]

No weapons allowed...

Luke 22:36

"But now," he said, "if you have a wallet or a pack, take it; and if you don't have a sword, sell your robe to buy one."

Luke 22:38

They said, "Look, Lord, there are two swords right here!" "Enough" he replied.

Sound like the guys in this story would not be welcome in Mrs "Smith"'s Sunday School class...

 

[YoungBrave]

I am an atheist; but not one of those who is angry with God. I don't think I could ever explain to you my religious beliefs, or would even like to try. What I do know is that if anyone was trying to brainwash my children I would boycott them. Whenever you know "dear" ms. anti-gun is teaching, take your children out of class and either take them to the adult service, or take the family out to brunch, and when the church community asks you why, tell them. Eventually "dear" Ms. anti-gun will be put out to pasture, or you will have a day off church every 3-4 months (which is about how often you can´t go anyways due to illness, weddings, funerals, etc.) I hope I don't sound too cavalier about this issue...I've always been practical to a fault; but there is little in the world that I dislike more than the idea of my kids being browbeat into a way of thinking that they did not arrive at by using their noodle.

 

[eqfan592]

First, I have some issue with jfdavis's suggestion that the children learn some "discretion." My problem is that this may be taken by the children to mean that enjoying firearms is something to be hidden away and/or ashamed of on some level. Please note that I am not saying that is what you feel personally, simply that it is how the children (and others) may view this course of action.

I'm a confirmed Lutheran, but I'm no longer of the Christian faith. However, I know for a fact that there are several strong pro-self defense verses, and that while killing may be against the 10 Commandments, I don't believe it is written anywhere in the Bible that weapons are inherently evil.

If you think your children are old enough to understand, I would try to explain that some people are stubborn and ignorant, and that they should not always believe 100% everything they hear, including things they hear from authority figures.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Deus Machina]

Agree with YoungBrave above.

The steps I would take are as such:

Report it to the pastor--which you did.

Tell the kids just not to mention the guns around her/at sunday school. They should learn this for public schools anyway, sadly. Don't say they should hide their interest, just that--like other things--some things don't belong in some places.
After all, if she's teaching Sunday school how it should be taught otherwise, it's irrelevant as it pertains there.

If she brings up anything about it, hold a torch to the pastor and anyone else in charge. It's not her place to berate your children needlessly or condemn legal activities.

If that doesn't get her out of the picture, just go on a picnic every time she's in charge, and let the people in charge know why. Taking the young'ns out of Sunday school is the religious equivalent of talking with your wallet.

However, I know for a fact that there are several strong pro-self defense verses, and that while killing may be against the 10 Commandments, I don't believe it is written anywhere in the Bible that weapons are inherently evil.

You could do well to remind her--and your children--this is the case.

After all, a more literal (depending on who you believe) translation is 'thou shalt not murder,' not 'thou shalt not kill,' and there are distinctions made. Many verses condone protecting yourself, your family, and your property.

If you think your children are old enough to understand, I would try to explain that some people are stubborn and ignorant, and that they should not always believe 100% everything they hear, including things they hear from authority figures.

This is also a very important lesson, but remember it's better to tell them "don't believe everything you hear, make up your own mind" and not "don't believe everything you hear--what you think is always correct." That's the lady's problem.

 

[hso]

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew. Not something he said to others or something he did to anyone else, but over something he drew. And since this isn't the first time something like this has happened she has established a pattern of behavior that will not change.

Her behavior was completely inappropriate and the leadership should assign her a role where her lack of judgment and personal control won't result in her verbally brutalizing anyone that can't see it as her problem.

 

[eqfan592]

"This is also a very important lesson, but remember it's better to tell them "don't believe everything you hear, make up your own mind" and not "don't believe everything you hear--what you think is always correct." That's the lady's problem."

Deus, that is a VERY important distinction, and I agree 100% with you.

 

[NotSoFast]

I agree with Rockwell1. Keep your children in the class except for the days that particular teacher cycles in.

I think I would have to have a discussion with the pastor on what I considered browbeating and forcing another's political views on an impressionable child against the parent's wills. I say this because it isn't just about the Second Amendment, but about manipulation and control, both of which are abuse and harassment. I think if your pastor started to hear those words, he just might be conducive to changes in his teaching staff.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I'd make an effort to have her removed.

She made a spectacle out of your kid, flat-out lied to them (illegal to draw guns in church?!), and lacks the basic social skillset that a Christian should have, i.e. tolerance and honesty.

And no, I don't care how convinced she is that she's been "called by the Lord to serve the children". She clearly isn't good at it and should be removed.

 

[Rockwell1]

The following is my opinion based on my religious beliefs.

please feel free to disregard this entire post

If you've had a discussion with the Pastor and you've expressed your disquiet to him I would let it drop right there. Unless the man is preaching blatant heresy God placed him in authority over that church, not you .

If you really feel strongly that this woman is a detriment to your children and you've prayed about it and feel that this is what God would have you do, Remove the kids (without any fuss whatever Do all things peacably and in order)from class when she teaches.

If you attempt to manipulate the church into doing what you want by telling them "Our kids won't be in Sunday school as long as SHE'S teaching" Biblically that's witchcraft and it has no place in church.

Bottom line pray, forgive & pray some more and do what God wants you to do.

And no, I don't care how convinced she is that she's been "called by the Lord to serve the children". She clearly isn't good at it and should be removed.

Maybe God put here there yo teach her that skill set so she can bet good at it.

God doesn't call the qualified (if you think he does look at Peter) He qualifies the called.
Again, this post is my opinion based on my religious training and beliefs. You are free to disregard it in its entireity

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

She is entitled to her opinion, but not to spread total misinformation. Illegal in a church?

 

[bangkok]

I am a bit shocked by some of the responses! Trying to have her removed for a lack of tolerance and honesty? Tolerance is a two way street! And removing your children, the world is full of people that don't believe what you or I believe, we learn "to" deal with them and we learn "by" dealing with them. I don't believe that this woman spouts off anti-gun sentiments every week, it happened once, move on.

 

[GojuBrian]

Nope, this woman was there to teach your son about the Bible, not about political issues. She needs to keep her views to herself concerning parents children. It's not her place to decide if guns are or are not right for your son. Seemingly, she is just an ignorant bat.

I would keep my son away from her and her skewered political agenda.

You have done the right thing so far, but I would press the issue.

 

[GojuBrian]

The main issue here is not how she feels about the 2nd amendment or gun control. The fact that she beraded your son and put him on the spot calls for immediate removal of working with children.

 

[SCKimberFan]

Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew.

This is the best answer yet. If she berated him in front of the other children in class, she isn't much of a Christian.

we like our kids to be in Sunday school and learn about the Lord

During those Sundays when she is teaching the class, have your own Sunday School at home and teach them about the LORD. It is your responsibility to do so anyway.

 

[danprkr]

If you think your children are old enough to understand, I would try to explain that some people are stubborn and ignorant, and that they should not always believe 100% everything they hear, including things they hear from authority figures.

AMEN to that! One of the things that hardly anyone teaches kids now a days is how to think for themselves. But, be prepared. Once they learn it on their own they are in for a more difficult life. Society tends to frown on thinking. Heck you'll be in for a more difficult child rearing experience - I guarantee that your children will not hesitate to use this on you But, it'll be worth it when they make you proud later in life.

As to this particular teacher. I would go the remove while she's teaching route. If asked I would calmly state, "That's between me, her, and God."

If she happens to ask I may tell her, but probably not. After your phone call you know how she feels, and you can be fairly certain that she's not changing.

As to acquiescence/discretion - NO! And, I know that it can be hard. I once was nearly arrested because I wouldn't apologize to a 7th grader for breaking up her fight. Long story, but the bottom line is that I didn't think apologizing was the right example to set for either my foster son, or the young lady involved. Don't set this one for your son.

 

[danprkr]

The main issue here is not how she feels about the 2nd amendment or gun control. The fact that she beraded your son and put him on the spot calls for immediate removal of working with children.

Good point. I can go with that. Wish I had thought of it.

 

[Apple a Day]

If she's wigging out and berating kids because of crayon pictures then it's time she was put out to pasture. I'm sure there are plenty of other usefull jobs she could be doing in the church which don't involve her yelling at kids.

 

[Nate1778]

Get up in front of the congregation and berate her amongst her peers. Yes, its childish, but it feels so good.


Just kidding, I don't know what I would do, I agree with most, she is entitled to her opinion, what ruffs my nipples is the berating of the child in front of his peers. I would think that if I were to approach her to discuss the matter I would have been more flamed about that then the gun portion. I would have also let her know if it was illegal to talk about them or draw them in church the authorities should have been called and insist that she do so next time. Police love spending there time enforcing laws made up by citizens.

 

[Just One Shot]

This is a good opportunity to teach your kids a good life lesson. Explain to them that just as some do not believe in and follow God, some people do not believe in the right to bear arms.

Let them know that even though people have opposing views we are not to give up on them.

For the unsaved we pray to the Father for them that He would open their eyes and hearts to His truth.

When given the chance we speak the truth to them so as to give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to convince them of their need for the Savior.

For the anti we speak of the importance of gun ownership and what it means to our personal freedoms.

Iran is the perfect example. Right now the people of Iran are protesting the recent election. Many have been slaughtered because the goverment's croonies are the only one that have firearms.

If the same situation were to arise in America, then the government would be less likely to use deadly force due to the fear of retaliation by it's citizens.

In both instances, all we can do is explain our position on the matters at hand. It's up to the individual to decide if what we speak makes sense and then to decide their own course of action. Ultimately, they are the ones who must live or die by their choices!

 

[nitetrane98]

If I remember my churches correctly, nothing will be done to the old bat because she's a rich old bat.