2nd concealed carry person on scene

[Shadow 7D]

Scribbs, the award was because he walked into the GUN STORE, which was a door to two down from the bank or check place the guy meant to rob.

 

[josephbw]

This should solve your problem.

 

[Skribs]

Shadow, I think it had more to do with walking around a cop car into a gun store, in an area where most people had guns anyway. Had he walked into a Florist shop instead, he wouldn't have gotten the award.

 

[Old krow]

On the larger side of the scenario (grocery store) it sounds like a recipe for disaster. It's likely to have a few people in and also likely to have multiple BGs. Larger number of sheep equals a larger number of predators. I think that you'd likely be vastly outgunned.

I think I saw this on "Murphy's Laws of War" and the USMC "Basic Rules of Combat" and it probably applies here; The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire

 

[twofifty]

Caught in grocery store robbery

I think that a CCer minding his own business is likely the best default policy, unless the BGs start shooting.

Here is why:

My 8yo kid and I had just paid for our groceries when 2 BGs -one with a revolver, the other a shotgun- loudly announced their presence at the other end of the store. I was not armed.

The BGs worked their way down the cashier line toward us, without pointing their guns at anyone. Thankfully they seemed cool calm and collected.

At first my child and I were far enough away that I could quietly instruct her on our 'what if' plan: "See that huge coke can display right there...yes dad...that's where we are going if they start shooting". We were too far from the doors to make our way outside, and did not know if a getaway partner waited out there.

The last thing I wanted was for some 17 y.o. packboy to play out a childhood hero fantasy. Or for someone with a CWP badge mindset (see above photo) to spring into Mall Ninja mode. Or for the cops to show up and the thing ramps up to a hostage situation.

We sure were glad to see the thieves peacefully make their way out the door without someone intervening and ruining everyone's day.

 

[uspJ]

That is a very complicated situation with no easy answer. The bottom line is if you don't know either of them how do you decide which one is the threat? Hw do you know what exactly is going on? The best advice I can give is if there are two people with guns drawn and aware of each other that is none of my business as long as neither point their weapons at me. If it was something blatantly obvious as to who the threat was (armed robbery etc.) I would act the same as if the other ccw'er wasn't there. Try to find cover and use my weapon as a last resort. If the other guy wishes to get in a gunfight I'll let him, as for me I'll do all I can to avoid one.

There is just too much going on and too quickly to say with any confidence that you won't be shot trying to identfy yourself or that you won't shoot the wrong person in this type of situation.

 

[jeepguy]

when i took my class i thought of these types of scenarios, and still do. first off (for me anyway) the reason i got my ccw was to protect my family and myself part of that includes coming home to them every night. second as far as i know none of us was born with a cape & i need to rember that. there are lots of thirds. you are in the store a bg comes in to rob it you pull out your carry gun and the two of you exchange fire, leo arives on the scene and sees that you just shot and hit the bg but he doesn't know who is who. another one, your in the bank which is crowded & bg comes in and says everybody down. at this point you don't know if he's alone or has one or more bg's with him. even if he is alone you pull your gun and see three armed people, are they all bg's or is one or more a undrecover/off duty leo or another citizen with a ccw, what do you do then? me i don't draw, unless i absolutly have to. becuse i don't have enough info to act responsibly. so i go back to my primary goal each day is to 1st. keep my family safe 2nd.keep myself safe to protect them & enjoy them. 3rd. always remember those two. i am not a coward and would help anybody where and when i can but if i die or end up in jail who will take care of my family. plus we have trained leo's, who can handle these matters professonally and better then we can. so we should call on them and let them do their jobs every chance we get. its safer for us and them, a ccw does not make us leo's it makes us legally armed citizens. so if i can i will call 911 every time. but i think these things are good to ponder now, before we find ourselves in one of them. also we should go over with our family members, what they should do if their is an intruder. stay in their rooms, leave by a window in their room and asemble somewhere, or whatever your plan is. so they know and you know where they will be, especially if you have to discharge your firearm and not want to worry about over penetration.

 

[therewolf]

I know at first blush most of us fantasize about being a hero, movies-style,
gun drawn, subduing the BG. True life isn't like the movies. BG's generally aren't
going to go after somebody who exudes easy confidence , or appears to be
carrying, or have any unexplained bulges. I constantly remind myself
"I'm NOT the Police, FBI,CIA, a PI, Captain America, Deputy Dawg,
or even Danger Mouse."

That said, if there's a second or third CCW at the site, I hope I'm it,
and I would be very hesitant to try to shoot anyone when a bystander's
life was in jeopardy.

IMO, the CWP badge is just a bad idea, all around, for a few good reasons.
First, the police don't like them.
Second, they give the appearance you WANT to get involved.
Third, anybody can buy them, criminals included.
Fourth, there's absolutely no authority behind that badge.
Fifth, it gives the BG a wonderful aiming point.

 

[scaatylobo]

I too try to imagine ALL possible scenerios that I could be involved in as an armed citizen [ was LEO ].

The worst possible one I can imagine is a Mumbai type attack - possibly during a busy holiday at a big mall/theater etc.

How do you make sure that your friends & family are safe,and then do you take any action that shows you are armed.

AND if you do,are you going to be a hero or a jerk that is shot along with the badguys ?.

Situational awarness is the thing that might save you and your loved ones IF you know the escape routes no matter where you are.

Not fun if your trying to enjoy the moment with the family - but who ya gonna call 'ghost busters' [ sorry but I had to ].

I hope none here ever find out the answer to the questions we posed here.

I know MY answers,but they are not for anyone but me.

 

[jjboogie]

One way I thought I could tell is if the shooter has his finger off the trigger. Most thugs don't know anything about gun safety so they are on the trigger waving the gun around. Holding guns sideways or crooked!

I can tell folks who train with their weapons by the way they carry themselves when the gun is in their hands.

That being said when something crazy and or traumatic is going on you never know how people are going to act. Hopefully still implimenting what they practice!

 

[9mmepiphany]

One way I thought I could tell is if the shooter has his finger off the trigger. Most thugs don't know anything about gun safety so they are on the trigger waving the gun around.

A lot of cops do that too...just look at the oops videos on Youtube

 

[therewolf]

I have to agree with scaatylobo, I would be looking to the safety of loved ones first.( then maybe family)

I would also be trying, if possible, to call 911.

It's called the land of the free and the home of the brave for good reason.
Do I risk getting shot, or let BGs walk all over me, perhaps come back again some other time? IMO, a crappy, but obvious choice.

 

[Skribs]

Therewolf, I was just thinking about something along those lines the other day. I think I read in another thread the comment that you should ask if the other person is CCW. Personally, I don't think it matters whether or not the guy has a permit to carry the gun, it matters what he's doing with it. Someone may not have a permit but be a bystander (you can legally open carry without a permit in my state), and someone else may have a permit but no record (first time offender or one who's never been caught) and I would then be supposed to leave that person alone.

To me, it matters more what the person is doing than what piece of paper the person has. All the CCW permit says is that it's legal to concealed carry your gun; it means nothing as far as what else you do with it is concerned.

 

[Skribs]

Because helping them isn't about money. It's about seeing a need and helping someone with that need.

 

[Kleanbore]

Because helping them isn't about money. It's about seeing a need and helping someone with that need.

"Helping"?

If the perp would have refrained from firing but for your actions, then your pulling a gun would not constitute helping anyone. Unfortunately, that's a very real possibility.

And then, there's the little matter of bystanders who may be killed or injured should the perp react to your actions, or should your bullets hit someone else.

All assuming, of course, that you aren't gunned down by a likely accomplice or an arriving policeman.

Not only do you stand to lose everything, you may well make matters far worse. Most robberies do not end in shootings. On the other side of the coin, many if not most people shot by handguns are not so immediately incapacitated that they cannot pull a trigger.

Now, if the perp is clearly on the edge, if he starts ordering people to lie down, if he points his gun sufficiently away from the clerk to significantly reduce the risk of your shooting resulting in injury to the clerk, if you have a clear shot and know the backstop, if you can sweep any accomplice once the action starts, if you can draw quickly without attracting attention, AND if you are sufficiently skilled, then, just maybe, intervention might be indicated. However, you as a civilian are neither sworn, nor indemnified, nor compensated for severe loss.

 

[TriTone]

I would engage the immediate threat right away while moving to any available cover, hoping the other legally armed citizen recognizes you as the same.

 

[clutch]

I'd look for cover and concealment and see how this plays out. Nobody better point a gun at me unless they are in uniform.

Getting out by a back way seems like a good plan btw.

Clutch

 

[TrickyDick]

Step 1: ASSESS! You need to know that you can the situation without further confrontation and without hurting bystanders. If you can goto step 2, if not. stay down, shut up, and keep your gun ready for immediate threats. Step 2: PLAN, make sure you are educated of the threat. (1 guy, 2 guys?) do they have automatic weapons? are they actually looking to hurt people, or just get money? make a plan that will end with the threat eliminated, and the safety of bystanders. Step 3: ACT. When you've concluded that you can do this, do it. do not hesitate, and make it quick. It is important that you don't jump up to shoot then change your mind. Just eliminate the threat, You do not want a shoot out, this could result in significant casualties. In the end, only draw your weapon when a life is in danger, money can be replaced, a life can't.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

They could be carrying, just like I am. They chose to be sheep, ok, then they risk the slaughterhouse.

Their employer most likely forbids them being armed at work. My employer did. I hope if the convenience store clerk is my daughter that someone would care enough to not allow her head to be blown off if they had it in their power to stop it.

 

[JDoe]

2nd concealed carry person on scene
________________________________________
I'm constantly running scenario about what if. One I have not been able to come to grips with is as follows: You are in a grocery store, convenience store or other public place. One or more hoods shows up with a gun with intent of robbery or mayhem and is a direct threat to the person behind the counter and others in the store. You don't know it but another c carry is there too. How do you identify yourselves?

“Look and feel” The same way I know who it is I’m looking for out of a crowd of people when meeting someone for the first time.

What would others do if one or more CCW holders came upon each other when threatened by deadly force from one or more bad guys?

I doubt if there would be time to do more than draw and shoot if that was the best re-action to the robbery.

 

[Ghosty1]

its really not so tough a call.
id run. carrying or not.
you must think of so much, and this is not an occasionm where your processes would be ...firing on all eight, if i might say...

esp a pistol....i dont care what cailbre....
its just not good.
if you are packing, good. if not...good. as long as you think, and realize the potential costs involved, not legal for YOUR defense
if you struggle wiht these issues, i say, good job, and i hope you are then when i never get robbed.

-G

 

[Ghosty1]

hey, im an emt. dont call 911. we wont even touch it. fact.
we arent allowed to carry in line of duty even. but we are the third service....

again, personally, id run.

if i HAD to draw, yes, i would.
2 com, 1 head shot.
given my carry weapon, thats easy, unless he hits me first.

-G

 

[Ghosty1]

joseph, please dont take this wrong lol. i so support you..

but i can get a texas ranger badge from ebay

*mutual joke, eh*

-G

 

[Reloaderharry]

I would think at after the draw, but before a shoot, you would be yelling something along the lines of "put the gun/knife down right xxxxx" etc etc to the bad man. If you see someone else pull out a CCW on and yell something similar, you know who is who.

In most cases this would be the thing to do anyway, even if there is nobody else present but the two thugs, yourself, and the clerk. Screaming this most often than not is going to get your average criminal headed out the door (and prevent you from dealing with 2 years of court proceedings). If they aren't headed out at this point, at least they are distracted enough that the gun/knife is probably coming away from pointing at the clerk.

I have a hard time seeing simply blowing someone away (even if they are holding up a grocery store) without at least giving them the chance to drop the gun and bail. You might think this is asking to be shot, but if your willing to draw on two armed criminals holding up a store your a bit past that decision anyway.

 

[MedWheeler]

Kleanbore writes:

..the perp may not intend to shoot unless provoked

This is one of the arguments often used by those who would like to see us not even carrying. I will never subscribe to it if the weapon is pointed at me, nor will I when the weapon is pointed at another innocent person.
My response will depend on circumstances at the time (environment, situation, who is with me, etc.)
I look, walk, and talk like a cop, though I have not been one in nearly two decades. Perhaps that would be to my advantage; perhaps not. I will have to cross that bridge when I come to it.