2nd concealed carry person on scene

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Excellent discussion. Common thread is pull your gun, chance getting shot, shooting innocent. This scenario while more complicated, the risk is the same. The simple scenario is where it is clearly you and one clear BG with no backstop or innocent issues.

Training for these decisions would by helpful. The poster with FOF scenario outcomes shows that there is no one formula for figuring all the hazards and sometimes only chance prevails.
 
Being sure to yell "drop the weapon" and proide a fair chance before shooting would be a dead giveaway that you are not the instigator, nor a party of theirs...however in this situation that poses risks of it's own to replace the other.

I'd likely just chance it from behind cover.
 
I think we may have finally come up with a good use for those CCW "badges"
"Please don't shoot" shouted rapidly+badge=?
 
Tacoma Mall shows how talking to the shooter may not be a plan.

While you are making your speech to the shooter, he is shooting you.

Do you really have responsibility to try to disarm (through verbalisms) an active shooter? Interesting debate.
 
Posted by GEM: Tacoma Mall shows how talking to the shooter may not be a plan.
Good put. I had never read any of the details.

... Dominick Maldonado, entered the mall with a semi-automatic Norinco MAK-90 rifle and a pistol, injuring six before he instigated four armed kidnappings.

... Brandon (Dan) McKown, a legally armed citizen, intervened. McKown drew his 9mm CZ pistol and verbally commanded Maldonado to put down his gun. Maldonado's response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown's spine and leaving him paralyzed.


Perhaps not such a good idea....
 
My grandfather was a cop in a rough neighborhood for 26 years. He was lucky that he only fired his weapon at a supect 1 time in that 26 years. One thing he always said was you never fire a weapon unless you have no other options left. His rules:
1. Don't fire unless a gun is, or is on it's way to, being pointed at you.
2. If the suspect fires at a presumed innocent, return fire.

In an armed robbery situation I don't think I would draw unless a shot had already been fired. If I walked in on something or found myself in the middle of an already ongoing situation I wouldn't say or do anything unless my own life was in danger because at that point you don't know who all the bad guys might be.

With that being said tragedies will occur:

A friend of mine had his father killed by cops during a card game that was robbed. The short story is they played a regular game of high stakes cards once a month. A player brought his friend (new guy) and the new guy robbed them. My friends dad (old guy) was older and had a carry permit so he went after the suspect. The guy got away but while the old guy was out side the police were surrounding the building. As they came around one side they saw a guy with a gun and gave a verbal command. Being slightly hard of hearing the old guy swung around and pointed his gun in the direction of 2 uniformed officers who immediately opened fire. Obviously the officers were justified but an innocent paid the ultimate price.

As to the question of how to I.D. yourself post #26 says it all
 
There's a post on TFL about a mall shooting where a husband heard about it, drove up because his wife was in the mall and ran towards the entrance with drawn gun. The cops outside managed NOT to shoot him but it was close.

They would have been in the clear if they did and he didn't immediately respond.
 
I would only draw my weapon when my life is at stake,on the other hand I would'nt watch innocent people get shot by gangbangers either. I think it would be obvious to anyone who the good guys are at this point. Hope I never have to make the choice.
 
I think it would be obvious to anyone who the good guys are at this point.
It would be a much safer world if that were true...it isn't

How would anyone know that your aimed gun in any situation would make you a good guy?

It reminds me of a local incident a while back when someone wanting to commit suicide by cop walked into a police station and started shooting. An officer, who had just gone off duty and changed to go home, went out a side door to get behind the shooter...as he entered the station, one of the other officers shot him, thinking he was the attacker.

This was a very small department and the officers all knew each other by sight...but at that moment all they saw was a man with a gun
 
In WA, the CCW law clearly states that the weapon can be drawn in order to protect oneself and also to prevent a felony in progress. Other states may vary, hell, they WILL vary.

That said, being a hero only goes so far. I was one today; a man was fallen in the street and I stopped, blocked traffic, and helped until medics arrived. But drawing during an armed robbery is a different animal. You may NOT be the hero if circumstances go another route.

What if the robber is using a fake weapon? Or an unoaded weapon? In some cases, your drawing and firing and could make you the "bad" guy. If the guy is an active shooter or has already fired a shot, then the story changes considerably. In this state I am well within my rights to put one in him if he does not respond to my commands and turns on me.

Personally, I carry to protect myself and loved ones. I figure a robbery would be less likely if everyone else carried. I do not carry to protect other's property. I do not carry to protect a stranger's life, but I may in an active shooter scenario.

For a robbery with no shots fired, I'd 1. seek cover. 2. draw at the low ready. 3. attempt to extract myself and call the cops 4. if challenged, I would fire. I would consider the challenge a direct threat.

Now consider this. Right down the street, literally, four cops were gunned down at a coffee shop. You know what I am talking about. Lots of people afterwards say they would have stopped it, but here you have FOUR open carry officers. Nobody else was shot but them. The first two didn't have a chance. The second two were in the process of drawing, but didn't have a chance. Here you have an active shooter. A felony in progress. You would certainly have been a hero in this situation, considering the aftermath, but would challenging the shooter put others in danger? Note he did not shoot at other customers or staff. He simply left. Challenging him while armed and loaded could put others at risk. That said, he was an active shooter. I would feel that my life was in risk during the firing. As an armchair general, I would say that I would have drawn and simply fired in a situation like this. No warning during an active shooter.

It is always a tough decision to draw. If I have that gut feeling, and I recognize it well as I have been beaten and robbed a few times and was lucky to get away when younger, then I draw. I always carry now, and I will always draw when I have that "feeling". I guess that answers the question:

When you get the gut feeling, draw. Period. Your life is in danger or you would not have that feeling, it is instinct. Hold out your weak arm defensively and give a strong verbal warning if possible. If not, fire, fire, fire. Then play the cards dealt.

Also, be aware of your situation. If someone else draws during an incident, they probably had that same feeling. Note which direction the muzzle is pointed. If not at you, he may be on your side. At any rate, both of you should be aimed at the same target, not at each other, as both of you should have identified the same danger. Both of you should give a similar warning if possible. If not, and clear to fire, fire.

I think that states that issue CCW's should make certain things clear, on the other hand, in this state if it isn't expressly illegal, it is legal. Having an SOP for drawing would help, maybe, but if you let lawyers do it they will F it up. Here in WA, if you pass the background check, you get the license. Period. No training, no class. I come from an infantry background, and simply use the ROE card issued ON 9/11. It is a good CYA thing, gives enough warning and enough authority (and it goes along with the state law). But the desk jockey accross the room may have only fired a few hundred rounds in his life. It would be nice for everyone to be on the same page... A state ROE card might be nice. If the lawyers don't F it up.
 
The stickyness of this situation goes to whether or not you are being reactive or proactive. Having had a gun pulled on me, I can say that most of us will be reactive in our decision making. Proactive means that your head is always on a swivel and you are aware of who is in the store, where they are, and what you can expect them to be doing. Reactive means that you are intent on that decision between Coke or Pepsi when the situation happens.

To a lesser degree this also involves the choice of weapon you CCW. I would never carry a chambered auto for the chance of accidental discharge. However, a double action revolver on half cock would be an excellent CCW. You have 5-6 guaranteed shots and all you have to do is draw & pull the trigger.

To be proactive, you already have to have that feeling for whats about to happen. Sad part is that many of us won't. So now the question moves from what do you do in this situation to how do you react safely and quickly in this situation.

First thing I would do is assess the situation and see how many people are in the room and obviously hostile. Anyone else after that assessment needs to be classified as a non-com.

Next thing I think would be prudent is to draw your weapon and issue hostile challenge "This is a citizen arrest. Put down your weapon(s) or you will be fired upon." My reasoning is that they already have eyes on you, so the notion that you can discretely hide/escape/call 911 is already out the window. They aren't going to be expecting anyone to be a threat to them, so exploit this and put them on the reactive. This might also buy you a second or two to survey the room further and make ready to fire. Hopefully, the other CCW sees/hears this and does as they see fit.

Theres only one good outcome after this and all others are bad. The good outcome is they stand-down and no-one is hurt. The laundry list of bad outcomes is hostage situation, fire-at-will shooting on all sides, fratricide, collateral damage, serious injury and or death.

In a situation like this, don't worry about what you are going to do. Worry about what everybody else is going to do. You know what you're going to do, however you don't know what anyone else is going to do. Also, the time window I explained is maybe 10 seconds on average and it took me reading this entire thread and a half hour to come to this. I know that rational decision making is going to go out the window when that fight or flight adrenaline kicks in for most of us.
 
This thread started with a discussion of a hypothetical store robbery and with the premise that an armed citizen should take action so stop it. That is often brought up here on THR. Strong reasons for not taking action unless shooting has started, or unless the perps are herding people into a back room, are invariably set forth. What makes this string a little different is the question about the possibility of having a second armed citizen present.

I don't know the likelihood of that , but I have heard that about forty percent of all armed assaults involve more than one gunman. That means that there is a forty percent chance that one would be facing two or more armed perpetrators. I should think that that far exceeds the likelihood that another armed citizen would be present and decide to use his gun. It means that pulling a gun would be exceptionally risky. It also argues against this:

Posted by Ole Humpback: ... a double action revolver on half cock would be an excellent CCW. You have 5-6 guaranteed shots and all you have to do is draw & pull the trigger.
If you have more than one violent criminal actor, or even if there is a high likelihood of there being more than one violent criminal actor, and you have to shoot as fast as you can and not all of your shots will hit the intended target, and because one cannot rely on one shot stops, the choice of a higher capacity weapon is indicated.

First thing I would do is assess the situation and see how many people are in the room and obviously hostile. Anyone else after that assessment needs to be classified as a non-com.
An easy way to be deceived, I think.

Next thing I think would be prudent is to draw your weapon and issue hostile challenge "This is a citizen arrest. Put down your weapon(s) or you will be fired upon."
The suggestion of a command to drop the weapon has been offered. See Post #79 for how well that idea worked in the Tacoma Mall Shooting. Perhaps you missed it:

... Brandon (Dan) McKown, a legally armed citizen, intervened. McKown drew his 9mm CZ pistol and verbally commanded Maldonado [(the assailant)] to put down his gun. Maldonado's response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown's spine and leaving him paralyzed.

I don't think I would choose that strategy.

My reasoning is that they already have eyes on you, so the notion that you can discretely hide/escape/call 911 is already out the window. They aren't going to be expecting anyone to be a threat to them, so exploit this and put them on the reactive.
Thus immediately turning the situation from one involving the threat of deadly force against the store clerk to one involving shooting at you....

This might also buy you a second or two to survey the room further and make ready to fire.
If you are not ready to fire instantly when you issue your command, you will be most unlikely to succeed. Also, that's a little late to be surveying the room.
 
Kleanbore,

I had read the Tacoma Mall shooting as Maldonado was already shooting before the McCowen talked to him. Perhaps I misread something there. Every point you made is valid, and I think you further reinforce what others have said. There is no "really" good way to approach this as others have said, your best bet is to not take action unless the BG's starts shooting.
 
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