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30-06 still King?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 357smallbore, Apr 20, 2019.

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  1. KnightHawk

    KnightHawk Member

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    You got it Bob. All in good fun. And I am sensitive about the old 30-06. But I shoot my lever guns most of the time, if I must be honest.
    55 years ago the 30-06 was my first center fire rifle, still have it, still shoot it, and it still works. So yeah there's a little nostalgia.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  2. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    No more sensitive then a Creedmore fan boy.
     
  3. Enfielder

    Enfielder Member

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    .30 Waymore.
     
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  4. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!
     
  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I am not getting that sort of velocity in any of my 270 Win's. I had this 30-06 featherweight rebarreled to a 270 Win, (the featherweight barrel was not that accurate and velocities were low) and even with a match grade barrel, I am not getting the sort of numbers that most 270 Win owners quote. In fact, this rifle blows primers just at the velocities the other two scoped 270 Win's I own.


    TCB3CKS.jpg

    dwhnQVD.jpg

    I asked the gunsmith to duplicate the SAKO Finnbear contour, which happens to be identical to the Green Mountain F34 contour, at least within my measuring capability

    uXhG3O4.jpg

    Prone with a sling:

    XeTRPCb.jpg

    Using the bench at 300 yards at CMP Talladega:

    130 grain bullets

    sG84tSR.jpg

    150 grain bullets

    8inhs5s.jpg

    yhqoL5d.jpg

    With IMR 4831 or H4831 I cannot push a 130 grain much above 2900 fps or I will experience blown primers. And I cannot push a 150 grain bullet much above 2700 fps, or I will experience blown primers. Very high velocity numbers are often quoted for the 270 Win, and no doubt, someone is reading them over their chronograph, but I am not. I do not see how a 130 grain bullet can be pushed to the same velocity in a 270 Win, as in a 30-06, without creating much higher pressures.
     
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  6. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    I for one will admit to a certain amount of nostalgia for the cartridge that played a major role in winning two world wars and served this nation in it's primary battle rifles as well as many full auto weapons for over half a century.

    Would you be so kind as to share your spread sheet with us? I'm sure I'm not alone in my desire to learn more regarding this cartridge.

    Regards,
    hps
     
  7. GAF

    GAF Member

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    Does it really matter if the 30 06 is called king or not? The fact is that a lot of people own a lot of 30 06 chambered rifles.
    The old king is not anywhere near dead yet !
     
  8. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    Well, the creedMOOR has some pretty good engineering on its side, which can't be said for the .30-06. About all it had going for it was that it was better than the .30-40 Krag, which was rimmed. Considering that the Belgian/Argentine Mauser had been out for over two years, that was flat out pathetic. So the '06 isn't the worst thing we've ever done, but it was inferior to the Mauser cartridges for military use the day it was released, which of course was itself an attempt to clean up the colossal SNAFU that was the '03.

    It's easy to get nostalgic about US service cartridges, but the reality is that we were very bad at cartridge design compared to pretty much every else in that era.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  9. Jack Ryan

    Jack Ryan Member

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    "My 30-06 is just as good as ya'lls 308..." said NO ONE EVER.
     
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  10. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    I think a lot of the bitter behavior of .30-06 types has to do with watching .308s produce the EXACT SAME BALLISTICS. They pretend they don't care, but as you can see above it's so painfully obvious that they care very, very much :D
     
  11. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I don't know enough about cartridge design to comment on the 6.5 Creedmore, but it does shoot well. No idea how well it functions in terms of feed and extraction. It is my considered opinion the 30-06 should not have been adopted, the US would have been better served if the Ordnance Department adopted the 7.5 X 55 Swiss (in the 1890's instead of the 30-40 Krag!). The Swiss round is just at 308 Win ballistics (and we are talking about an 1880's round), it is shorter (semi auto's/full auto's were not a consideration till you got to WW2) so it could have survived after WW2 showed the 30-06 was too long. It has a nice thick rim, which makes it harder to rip the rim off during extraction. This is if the Ordnance Department had to have a 30 caliber, I think the actual intelligent decision for 1903 would have been to adopt the 6.5 X 55 cartridge in a M1898 actioned rifle.

    The only good cartridge cartridge the Ordnance Bureau came up with was the 276 Pedersen, but the types who hate change came up with bogus reasons to stick with the 30-06. The 276 Pedersen would have made an excellent intermediate range combat round.

    However, as a hunting round, the 30-06 does just fine.

    Comparisons between the 30-06 and 308 have killed lots of electrons. In my experience target shooting, the heaviest bullet a 308 can push with a decent velocity is a 190. The 30-06 was developed with the 220, I only shot up to 200's in the 30-06. The 7.62 Nato was developed to be a 30-06 short, it pushes a 150 grain bullet to the same velocity as the 30-06, it does so with higher pressure, as the case capacity is less. I found the 308 Win to be an excellent target round, and I preferred it to the 30-06 because I rolled around less when manipulating the bolt rapid fire, and it kicked less for the same velocity. The 30-06 probably has an edge in accuracy beyond 600 yards, because you can push the bullet 100 to 150 fps faster, but I can't prove it on target.

    With the old military match bullet, which was a decent bullet, but inferior to the SMK's, there is not a whole bunch of difference between 7.62 Match and 30-06 Match out to 600 yards. Maybe if the bullet was better the targets might have shown a difference, but, without an actual comparison, this is only conjecture.

    auPh02q.jpg
    I water marked these to keep Bart B from stealing them, and I made my accounts hidden so he could not again get into my photo accounts and delete images that contradicted his claims that the 30-06 could not shoot straight. I am quite sure he was the one that got into my Photobucket account and deleted this image, for 10 years later he was using one of them. It took me about ten years to go find the paper copy and rescan and rehost the picture.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  12. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    Argentina built some 80,000 model 1909 Mausers (Mod 98) in 30-06. I wonder what other countries adapted the round?

    Regards,
    hps
     
  13. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    Slamfire, any and all of those rounds would have done better as service rounds at various points.

    As a hunting round, the .30-06's only real advantage is having a suitable twist. Nearly everything else is wrong - the case capacity is low for the length (taper and a steep shoulder are basically useless on hunting rounds), the bore is too big for non-dangerous game and not big enough for dangerous game, and SAAMI pressure is too low. Yes, you can hunt most NA species with it. But you can do better with numerous other rounds.
     
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  14. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    It is hard to understand looking back from today just how backwards the US was in 1900. If we had simply sent someone to Europe to do the grand tour and buy an example of every service cartridge, and then lined them up on a table at Springfield and picked the best features of each we would have ended up with a 6.5mm or 7mm rimless round with a spire point boat tail in a full pressure M98 type rifle. Instead we got the '03 which was a joke and the '06 which still had the wrong bore diameter and a worse bullet than the Lebel which was by then 17 years old. It wasn't until 1925 that we got M1 ball with both a spire point and a boat tail - 39 years after the French demonstrated that was the right way to do it.

    It's easy to get nostalgic, but the reality is we were really bad at this stuff.
     
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  15. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    Just because you think differently than most people doesn’t make you right Llama Bob. And I’ve seen enough of your posts to ascertain you really do think differently or just like to take contrary views for the sake of argument.
     
  16. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    It really isn't a matter of "thinking differently" - the engineering reality is that the .30-06 was deficient as a military cartridge from the beginning. It lacked many very good features that were already present in European rounds years before. It also happens to be decidedly mediocre as a hunting cartridge, but for different reasons. It was probably the best general purpose hunting cartridge readily available in the US at one time, but that speaks more to the poor availability of better cartridges than anything else.

    People like to get all nostalgic, and that's fine. Go shoot great-grandpa's rifle. Don't let me stop you.
     
  17. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    So what it boils down to is I’m supposed to believe you over the well respected gun writers who believe 30-06 is an excellent cartridge. Also to believe you over the thousands of hunters who are happy with their 30-06’s.
     
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  18. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    So if the 06 isn’t the king, who is?
     
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  19. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    I spelled it right CreedMORE
    As it'll do MORE of this and MORE of that as compared to any normal cartridge.

    :rofl:
     
  20. Picher

    Picher Member

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    Where did you get the idea that greasing cases was a good idea? I've always read that any grease on cases causes them to slip in the chamber and apply too much pressure to the bolt. My cases and chambers are clean and dry before shooting. Handloads are also sized to fit closely in the chambers, but leaving a slight jump for the bullet, to minimize pressure. Hotter loads need a bit more jump than moderate target loads.

    My cases are resized to closely fit chambers, to minimize case stretching, special attention is given to matching hunting loads to rifle chambers. Fortunately, both my Remington 700, .270s have nearly identical chambers.
     
  21. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    65kpsi, compared to 60 for the 06. Most pressure tested data I see limits the 06 to around 58-59k max, and the . 270 to 62-63k.

    If I take my bergara up to bolt stick, or mushroomie primers. It will drive 165s at over 3100fps. 3k is well within comfort for superformance, and rl-19.

    I haven't messed with a .270 that much yet. Got some new components for my Wby, and we'll see where that gets. Bullets I'll be trying are 145eldxs, gotta see what slower powders I can dig up, all I got right now are 7828, and Ret, which may not deliver top velocity.

    7mm Remington Magnum!



    Thought I was gonna say creeDMore dintcha!
     
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  22. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    Nothing better will ever come along unless some military somewhere starts to use it.....and I would go as far to say unless the US adopts it.

    This platform has killed everything else, real shame......if for some reason shooting 500 nitro express became super popular someone would figure out a way to stick it in something that looks like an AR.

    It is a toaster, stapler, claw hammer to me.....my fun guns are not tools but are there for fun.....I have one AR and that is enough.....I have one 10-22 that is more than enough.....I hate popular, trendy.....things in general.
     
  23. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I've seen it suggested for fire forming to allow the case to move back completely against the bolt. I haven't tried it as most of my FF is now done with COW.
     
  24. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    It is pretty funny to read defense on this vs that. Really amazing what people tell themselves to justify what they BELIEVE (i did not use the word think here for a reason)....and the new flavor of the month fanboi's are truly having their head in the sand.....believe in stats, put out by marketing companies designed to sell this new wizz bang wonder thing.....when anyone with hair on his ass and no man bun knows from decades of experience what the truth really is.

    It is a little like trying to talk to a teenager....they know it all and old dad does not get smart till that kid hits about 30......same with this stuff, one day they "might" see that.....huh....this really is not any better, it was all a gimmick to sell new stuff to the masses.

    Works every time.

    What is really fun is to be on the line with one of these new wonder believers and have some old dog, with an old rifle out shoot the kid.....does not happen often as shooting usually does go down hill as we age, but when it does happen the wonderful excuses that come out is just amazing.....and the attitude before the shoot is just amazing, as is the general lack of what they are talking about.
     
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  25. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Just to be fair, ain't all of us puppy's un learned.
    You get those, but a fair amount of "fanboi" is sense to make use of new tech. Will the newest and bestestez beat out the old standbys all the time? No, but It's at least worth the look.

    You want to argue old, vs oldish? Well I submit that all sub .300 win mag us hunting cartridges were rendered ballistically obsolete with the introduction of the 7mm remington magnum in '62, and even the .300 is less efficient on sub 500lb game.
    Does that automatically make it the best? (As much as I might personally think so) not even close...best, king, cartridge all mighty! Dosent mean the same thing to everyone, so no point in getting pissy when someone likes something different.

    Edit: well, speaking of pissy. That came out sharper, and less comical than I'd intended.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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