30-30 cast bullets low velocities

[marine0341]

Thanks for accepting my member request, I am in eastern NC. Before I get into what I have questions about ill give you a little background. I’ve been metallic and shot shell loading for about 5-8 years now. Usually loading easily accessible loads found in almost in every manual. I’ve reached a problem, what I’m trying to accomplish is not in any of my manuals hornady/Lyman.

I am trying to shoot 165 lead cast bullets without a gas check through my marlin 336 with a 16.5 in barrel at subsonic velocities. As everyone knows reloading supplies are almost non existent. On hand at the moment I have cfe blk, alliant steel, long shot and a very small amount of bluedot.

so my goal is to have a stable round at or around 1050fps to shoot through my suppressed 336. I’m not hunting with this load. This will be for plinking. Thanks in advance for in help trying to achieve this. Jesse

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Hello i load 30/30 158 grain coated cast with 9 grains of red dot or green dot. Nice easy shooting load.

 

[Bfh_auto]

gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
This link should apply all the info you need.
I've found Titewad and 700X to be perfect low velocity cast powders. They are fluffy and ignite consistently.

 

[AJC1]

Work a load down with a pistol powder.... Unique would be first choice. You might also get great results with trailboss

 

[Bcwitt]

I would suggest a heavier bullet, myself. Not sure where the twist hits the limit, but heavy bullets tend to make better use of the case volume, thus slightly better efficiency. That often translates to more accurate ammo. Extra case volume isn't helpful. If I were to go with a 165 lead subsonic, I'd use something like 700x or unique. A relatively fast powder makes up for some of the extra volume finicyness.

 

[Bazoo]

Howdy. Welcome from the commonwealth of Kentucky.

I'm into casting for the 30-30 myself. But I havent worked in the area you are, so can offer no advice.

The older Lyman cast manuals, 1 and 2 used pistol powders at low velocity for 30-30 loads. Best I recall. I had both and found little I needed so I traded them.

 

[Seedy Character]

Trail Boss is your friend
Unique and 700X are excellent choices
Red Dot and Green Dot work great

Heavier bullet is a great idea. Something in the 200gr range.

 

[AJC1]

I generally dig heavier bullets but going heavier and slower will both work against you. If young intend to try that run a stability calculation or six and dont go overboard. The 300bo works because they have a fast twist....

 

[Stumper]

6.4 grains of Red Dot will get you exactly what you seek. If you can't find the Red Dot try your Blue Dot. In theory the Dots and Unique and Herco all generate the same Gas volumes per charge but build pressure at different rates....so if barrels are long and pressures are in the acceptable range velocities will be similar. That said I would probably first try 8 grains of Blue Dot and decrease charge if velocity is too high.

 

[25-20 WCF]

The new guy in town walks into the LGS and asks where he can get the best steak in town. The old codger sitting by the pot-bellied stove tells him he should really order chicken instead. Then the clerk walks up and tells them both that he likes seafood better…..

Sadly the OP has had to put up with responses like that quoted above, most of which recommend components he neither has or can find. I loaded low velocity cast loads for my now-gone .30-30, the only powder I used that the OP has is BlueDot. I started with data from a then-current Hercules Reloader’s Guide in the handgun silhouette section. It listed a 152-grain cast bullet over 13.0 grains BlueDot which produced 1525 fps in a 14” barrel. I used a 170-grain Lee bullet and wanted a lower velocity anyway, so I tried 10 grains of BlueDot. I don’t remember if I chronographed it but it shot reasonably well. That might at least be a place to start, he may need to work down.

Of the powders the OP has, BLK is really too slow, and while Steel and LongShot might work I have no idea what charge weight would work. Note that any of the faster powders which don’t come close to filling half the case will be position sensitive (yes, including BlueDot), so plan on tipping the muzzle up (or down) before each shot.



.

 

[Swampman]

The main thing I'd suggest is powder coating since you won't be using gas checks.

Your 165 gr bullets should work well.

There's no point in going heavier unless you need more energy at subsonic speeds. Your 336 probably has a 1/10 inch twist so going much heavier at subsonic velocity could lead to stability issues.

I haven't used any of the powders you listed to load subsonics, but I think they're all slower than optimal.

Despite what some people may advise, getting a safe, accurate and consistent subsonic load isn't as easy as downloading whatever powder you happen to have available.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Sadly the OP has had to put up with responses like that quoted above, most of which recommend components he neither has or can find. I loaded low velocity cast loads for my now-gone .30-30, the only powder I used that the OP has is BlueDot. I started with data from a then-current Hercules Reloader’s Guide in the handgun silhouette section. It listed a 152-grain cast bullet over 13.0 grains BlueDot which produced 1525 fps in a 14” barrel. I used a 170-grain Lee bullet and wanted a lower velocity anyway, so I tried 10 grains of BlueDot. I don’t remember if I chronographed it but it shot reasonably well. That might at least be a place to start, he may need to work down.

Of the powders the OP has, BLK is really too slow, and while Steel and LongShot might work I have no idea what charge weight would work. Note that any of the faster powders which don’t come close to filling half the case will be position sensitive (yes, including BlueDot), so plan on tipping the muzzle up (or down) before each shot.



.

This is a screen shot from the link I posted in the 3rd comment. I posted the link instead of this because there is a lot of good information on the site.
Telling him what we have had good results from will give him an idea on what to keep his eyes open for.
I totally agree that heavier isn't better unless needed.

 

[.45Coltguy]

165gr fn coated from Missouri bullets and 9.0gr Unique work pretty good in my Mod 94 30-30. When i get to my notes, I'll post the MV.

 

[joneb]

I am trying to shoot 165 lead cast bullets without a gas check through my marlin 336 with a 16.5 in barrel at subsonic velocities

Welcome to THR
I'm assuming this has the micro groove rifling? I haven't tried cast for a 30-30 win. with the micro groove seems like BHN and sizing would be important.
I have a Alliant reloaders' guide from 2004, that has a cowboy action load for 30-30 win. 165gr FP(it doesn't say if it is cast?) barrel 24", min. COL 2.512", 7.0gr of Unique, for 1,236 fps
There is also a silhouette load for 30-30 win. with a 152gr cast lead, fed # 210, min. COL 2.5", 13gr of Blue Dot, for 1,525 fps, 29,000 CUP no barrel length was given.
Not sure how low you can go with Blue Dot, maybe using a filler would help. I have had good results with Blue Dot in .308 win. with 125gr jacketed I used 16 gr. I haven't checked the velocity yet, but the load groups under a 1" @ 100yrds. I didn't use a filler the case fill is about 45% with 16gr in .308 win.

 

[PapaG]

30-30=fun. 30-30 with cast bullets=even more fun. I have been in your shoes regarding components. I picked up a 200 grain round nose plain base mould for a song at A gun show long, long ago. I tried it with a pinch of various powders using an old Lyman manual (the first cast bullet manual, in fact) and some other sources. Basically, I found a load that sounded good, then matched up the relative burning rate of that powder with powders I had on hand.
A few things I learned along the way. Micro groove barrels seem to like a cast bullet a few thousandths bigger. My Marlin likes .311 dia. Next, trim cases to the same length if you are crimping (and if you are feeding from the tube mag, you should crimp). Use the crimp groove in the bullet. When I'd make my load choice, I'd cut back a couple grains. I have used Blue Dot, Unique (fave), Red Dot, 700X, 3031, 4759, 5744, 2400, and a few others. My load with the 200 iirc, was about eight grains of Unique and it would bury itself in the end of a railroad tie so my pocket knife blade would just touch the base. I'd start with the Blue Dot.

 

[marine0341]

6.4 grains of Red Dot will get you exactly what you seek. If you can't find the Red Dot try your Blue Dot. In theory the Dots and Unique and Herco all generate the same Gas volumes per charge but build pressure at different rates....so if barrels are long and pressures are in the acceptable range velocities will be similar. That said I would probably first try 8 grains of Blue Dot and decrease charge if velocity is too high.

Thanks for the help!! So I probably have enough Bluedot for about 10 cases. So in my research I’ve found that alliant steel was created to act like blue dot but to ignite better in cold weather. If it was created around blue dot it should work right? Steel is a big flaky powder that should leave little room inside of the case

 

[Bfh_auto]

Thanks for the help!! So I probably have enough Bluedot for about 10 cases. So in my research I’ve found that alliant steel was created to act like blue dot but to ignite better in cold weather. If it was created around blue dot it should work right? Steel is a big flaky powder that should leave little room inside of the case

Over on cast boolits someone is using 11 grains of Steel with a 180 for 1400 fps. That's does put it in the same ball park as blue dot.
If course this isn't pressure tested data. So you are doing this at your own risk.

 

[Stumper]

There is very little data for Steel outside of shotgun loads. A few people have played with it in 10mm auto and magnum revolver cartridges. The results they report suggest that it might work for your intended purpose......however it will meter very poorly in small charges and is so doggone precious and hard to find for steel shot reloading that I would suggest finding someone ro swap with. I know that I would gladly swap Red dot or Unique for Steel.

 

[marine0341]

There is very little data for Steel outside of shotgun loads. A few people have played with it in 10mm auto and magnum revolver cartridges. The results they report suggest that it might work for your intended purpose......however it will meter very poorly in small charges and is so doggone precious and hard to find for steel shot reloading that I would suggest finding someone ro swap with. I know that I would gladly swap Red dot or Unique for Steel.

thanks everyone. So I am going to powder coat my hard cast and test some steel powder. It may take me awhile but I will update this thread when I get the results. Thanks again Jesse

 

[GooseGestapo]

Try to find a copy of Lymans Cast bullet Handbook.
Lots of helpful info.

 

[243winxb]

View attachment 1047401 CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Of the powders you gave-

30-30. CFE BLK. *15 grs. as a test. Load 1 shell. My guess from looking at 300 AAC Blackout .

 

[243winxb]

30-30. CFE BLK. 20 grs. as a test.

20 grs about 1800 fps. Reduce to *15 grs. My guess,

 

[mkl]

I was going the other way with my 30-30 but this may help you decide on a load.

I had 1200 FMJ bullets I had to pull from a bad case of 7.62x25 pistol ammo. Bullet weight was 86 grains. Diameter was .3084 so it appeared I could shoot in a 30 caliber gun. I decided to use my single shot H&R 30-30 as a test platform. Oh... I was also using the unknown powder that was in the cartridges from which the bullets came (primers were bad so I had to dispose or pull and recycle).

I started out using the weight of powder that came in the original cartridges. Two shots and looked down the barrel. Was a dirty as a sewer pipe! Added another two grains and still dirty. No pressure signs and velocity was still low (I was using a chronograph). Added a few more grains of powder and got a clean burn. Barrel was clean, no pressure signs and velocity around 2400 fps (remember an 86 grain bullet).

I could probably drive the bullet to well over 3000 fps but being an unknown powder I stopped as soon as I got a clean burn.

Point of all of above is that one of the best indicators of sufficient pressure to get powder to burn correctly is a reasonably clean barrel after firing your test load. Once you get to that point do not go further unless you have good data from reloading manuals matching the powder you are using.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I was going the other way with my 30-30 but this may help you decide on a load.

I had 1200 FMJ bullets I had to pull from a bad case of 7.62x25 pistol ammo. Bullet weight was 86 grains. Diameter was .3084 so it appeared I could shoot in a 30 caliber gun. I decided to use my single shot H&R 30-30 as a test platform. Oh... I was also using the unknown powder that was in the cartridges from which the bullets came (primers were bad so I had to dispose or pull and recycle).

I started out using the weight of powder that came in the original cartridges. Two shots and looked down the barrel. Was a dirty as a sewer pipe! Added another two grains and still dirty. No pressure signs and velocity was still low (I was using a chronograph). Added a few more grains of powder and got a clean burn. Barrel was clean, no pressure signs and velocity around 2400 fps (remember an 86 grain bullet).

I could probably drive the bullet to well over 3000 fps but being an unknown powder I stopped as soon as I got a clean burn.

Point of all of above is that one of the best indicators of sufficient pressure to get powder to burn correctly is a reasonably clean barrel after firing your test load. Once you get to that point do not go further unless you have good data from reloading manuals matching the powder you are using.

That works if the powder burns clean within the pressure rating if the cartridge. Some powders don't clean up as soon as others. With a 30-30 he's probably safe using that approach.

 

[Charlie98]

A few people mentioned it, I’ll mention it again… make sure your bullet fits the bore before getting all carried away with this… and particularly with the MicroGroove barrel. Because of the low velocity, and your likely choice of powder, bullet base obturation is not likely to be significant, you will have to have properly sized bullets for your bore for this to work. Yes, .001” can make a difference.