.30-30 Disrespect?

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THeres always a saying, It has taken a life on its own. .30 30 has a long history in American gun culture. Age of the caliber has its own following and diehard afficionados. That goes with the other calibers. To each his own.
BTW i dont own one and have high regards to those who use it. My comparable gun to the .3030 is the SKS round.
 
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Hobie:

You are correct. I ran the figures for the .308 Win "Managed Recoil" and discovered that the .30-30 Win in a bolt gun actualy out-paces the .308 Win Managed Recoil...significantly:

.30-30 handloads of 2409 FPS:
150 grain boattail projectiles BC = .442(bolt-action or single-shot rifle...not lever-action)
zeroed at 210 yards
achieve +3.31" at 120 yards
pass zero at 210 yards
max point of -3.68" at 250 yards
remaining energy is 1,234 pounds at 250 yards


.308 Managed Recoil @2660 FPS:
125 grain spitzer projectiles BC = .309 (bolt-action or single-shot rifle...not lever-action)
zeroed at 210 yards
achieve +2.89" at 120 yards
pass zero at 210 yards
max point of -3.39" at 250 yards
remaining energy is 1,030 pounds at 250 yards
remaining energy is 1,211 pounds at 190 yards

Interesting, isn't it? :D What I would ask of Remington regarding the "Managed Recoil", how many of use would take a 125 grain spitzer, .308 caliber against a whitetail deer? I suspect not many.

Geno
 
The 30-30 isn't a 19th century death ray any more than the 300wm is today. It is a popular round that works well within the ballistic and rifle/sight capabilities.
I use the 30-30 primarily in my contender and it will hold within 5" at 300yds from the bench and I have shot numerous deer and antelope out to 200 yds with it. My mod. 94 gets fed mostly 110 gr hps. and makes what some would call an excellent truck gun for most ranch country varmints with the Williams peep.
The two biggest drawbacks of the round are the 94 Win that makes it tough to properly mount a scope and the tubular magazines that restrict bullet types. IMO the Contender has about maximized the potential of the 30-30 ballistically but the trade off comes in loosing the capacity and easy function of the Win/Marlin carbines.
It will never be what the big 300 is or even the 06 for that matter but I don't see me ever being without one or more.
 
First remember the 30-30 was developed in the lat 1800's. It was the first civilian smokeless power round. I know of people that are still hunting with the 30-30 in rifles that were made in the early 1900's. Thus the factory loadings have to be safe in these older rifles.

Yes the flat tip bullet, (a necessity in tube fed rifles), is a ballistic detriment. This tends to give the round a "rainbow" trajectory. Even so I watched my cousin drop a deer at 300 yards with 1 round. It was DRT. It was a case of "a man with one rifle".

The 30-30 is the original intermediate cartridge. They have been trying to reinvent it since the early 1900's. Rounds like the 30 rem, 6.8 SPC, designed of the 30 rem case, 7.62x39, etc are all in the 30-30 ballistic class.

When I was in Alaska I loaned my Marlin 30-30 to a friend. He took a nice moose with it. No I don't think the 30-30 is a long -open range caliber. But growing in the south, and now living in the mid west, it still the number 1 round.

Just because it "NEW" doesn't make it better. Though I have 308 rifles and 7.63x39 rifles, If I ended up with nothing but my 30-30 I wouldn't loose any sleep.
 
I love the 30-30, but it has little to do with the cartridge itself, and almost everything to do with the package that fires it - for me it's a 1960 Winchester 94. 2 of my favorite rifles are this 94, and my Marlin 1984 .44 Magnum. Lever guns just beg to be carried without a sling, knocked around, thrown into a scabbard, shouldered and fired quickly, etc. When I'm kicking around in the woods, camping, hunting in thick timber or brush, or pulling a rifle in and out of a truck all day, I'd take one of my lever guns over any of my bolt or semi-auto rifles any day of the week.

If the 30-30 had been introduced and marketed exclusively in bolt-action rifles, maybe it wouldn't still be around...

Lever Forever!
 
Nothing really wrong with the .30-30, even I own one. I don't shoot it much as I don't do the type of hunting where the Win 94 shines. But it is a great utility rifle and that's why I keep it. Mine is an old police gun carried by one of the mounted units where I live. They traded it in for an AR when the mounted unit was disbanded. It's a piece of history to me.

At one time I was asking questions about what it would kill. I had a rancher out west tell me he killed a wild bull with his. That's not a small animal.
 
I know a fellow back in California whose wife uses a Winchester 94 for deer hunting. It has side mounted scope. It would be an understatement to say that rifle has seen its better days. Yet, every year she bags a deer.

Trust me, in California that is a big deal.

Anyway, her husband has offered to buy her a new gun on several occasions. The looks she gives him can't be described on this type of forum.
 
I think most of the "disrespect" is due to it's age."OMG its so OOOLD!
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I really doubt it. Sure there are a few folks out there that have to have rifles in 6.8 SPC or a WSSM, but most of us are shooting "modern" cartridges like the .308, (59 years old), 30-06, (105 y.o.), 7.62x39, (68 y.o.), 7.62x54R, (120 y.o.), 45 ACP, (107 y.o.), etc...

It's not like there have been any real breakthroughs in cartridge design in the last 50 years.
 
.30-30 just happened to reach a balance of ballistic potential -- bullet weight, velocity, kinetic energy, rifle weight, recoil energy, etc. -- that filled the niche of woods hunting deer size game almost perfectly.


ADDED: the gun companies are not going to say You got a .30-30 already? Well you probably won't need our new Whizbang .xx (unless you plan to go plains hunting antelope.)
 
A buddy mine is a avid hunter, he has many rifles to choose from and sold me his old Ted Williams 30-30 just to make room in his safe. I do not hunt but I have used it on woodchucks and plinking, yeah I probably could have just used my 39A or my 1894c but sometime you gotta expand your horizons :D.
I love levers, I think everyone ought to have a 30-30 sometime. I will almost bet someday when we're old(er) and gray(er) my buddy is gonna ask if I still have his first deer rifle... and if he can have it back.
 
elmerfudd said:
I really doubt it. Sure there are a few folks out there that have to have rifles in 6.8 SPC or a WSSM, but most of us are shooting "modern" cartridges like the .308, (59 years old), 30-06, (105 y.o.), 7.62x39, (68 y.o.), 7.62x54R, (120 y.o.), 45 ACP, (107 y.o.), etc...

It's not like there have been any real breakthroughs in cartridge design in the last 50 years.
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you are MORE right than you know...

If you read through the Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders vol 1 and 2, especially there in the back you will see all kinds of obscure wildcats...ones that in a few cases look strangely familiar...

Book was printed in 1962.
 
I remember when I was 12 and I had worked all summer for my M94 in 30-30 Win. As I stood with my Uncles in my Grandfathers field, All my Uncles had '06's and 7 mags, they were trying to convince me that I was practically unarmed with my 30-30. My Grandfather spoke up to them and said "Which one of you would like to get hit in the knee with his little rifle?' I went on to shoot an 8 point buck on the run at about 30 yards, one shot. Like rolling a bunny, That buck had run past 2 of my properly gunned overscoped Uncles. Point made. I now use a .308 or 30-06 with a scope, but that M94 is still in the gunsafe, ready for use.
 
I like the 30-30 levergun package. It will do all I need it to do and with cheap ammo.
Should I go somewhere it lacks power I will take the 45-70 levergun.
 
The 30/30 gets no respect anymore because folks want new and different. It stil works if you can place your shot well and can sneak up and get within its range. I would not recommend it for hunting out of a blind on a south texas sendero where the shots might be 500 yrds though. In the brush of MI/WI/MN it does quite nicely though. I know I have taken several deer with it and have 2 3030 94's in the safe for just that reason.
 
Folks, when I lived in the great state of Wisconsin, (back when that military-loving Senator Proxmire and his glass of milk, was on Saturdays with his report), a .30-30 was 'the tool of choice', to take down whitetail deer in the plus 200-pound range. I have great respect for the rifle, and for the round. (Hello, my name is "Igor", and I am a 'baby-boomer retired early') As for 'rifles, generically', I will not purchase a Communist-bloc rifle, or a so-called 'EBR'. I -have- owned: a nasty ol' Pennsylvania flintlock rifle, stinking up the environment, with the smile of a berserking Viking; an SMLE MkI, poking holes in that ol' nasty Khomeini picture at 200 yds. open sights, with glee; and a nice Savage 99a in .308Win. with a 3x9x40mm, after Great Dane sized Calif. sub-species of deer, too long ago to remember which hybrid it was.

Lever actions are All-American Champions. (Proven by Sitting Bull.) The Civil War proved their existence. There was an outfit from "Middle America", that bought Henry's, instead of using caplock Springfield muskets. President Lincoln was well-impressed. President T. Roosevelt had a favorite Winchester. They are made for hard work, hard charging, and hard use, as "guys have been defined, as being hard on equipment". It -is- the answer to the call raised by the late Col. Jeff Cooper, for a 'scout rifle'. Also, folks think "cowboy", versus 'terminator' with an 'ebr'.

Now ... to get serious for a moment, that moonbat Congresswoman McCarthy is at it, again, even after SOTUS siad whit it did!
 
For deer, i never dis the 30-30, but i don't care to use something with 30-30 balistics when there are so many better choises. If it was all i had, i'd use it and live with it's limitations.

When i lived in Alaska, there was an old man who had lived out in the bush for many many years. He didn't come out all that much, but after not seeing him for some time, a couple of his friends went in to see him. They found his lever action 30-30 and it had an empty round in the chamber, but they never found him. I was told the gun was loaded with 170 grain silver tips.

A year or so later, a hunter was hunting back in where the old guy lived, and a brown bear charged out of the brush, the guy got one shot off (i think with a 300 Win. Mag.?) and killed it. When he skinned it out, he found a deep gouge in the bears skull where clearly a bullet had failed to penetrate the skull. The F&G and troopers who did the investigation, concluded that "that" bear had killed the old man, even though the old guy hit the bear in the head as it was chargeing him... The bear was old and didn't have much for teeth, and had turned to killing what ever was easiest to kill.

Not that i'm putting the 30-30 down, but it's a good story, that's true.

DM
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Sorry but that story has some holes (no pun intended) on it...nothing to do with you, no disrespect but there is some faulty logic there.

Granted I do not consider a 30-30 a brown bear gun by any stretch of imagination even if it has been used as such by some up there in AK for decades.

I can understand the lack of penetration to the vitals from odd angles or with very large brown bears with body shots where you have to get through fat, muscles and bones.

But if this was a charging situation it means that first of all the range was very limited...supposedly the old man hit the bear in the skull, so no fat or muscle to get through....I do not know of any bone structure (we are not talking about elephants here) capable of stopping a 170 gr. silvertip at that short distance....there is a very well published penetration test where the Winchester Silvertips went through leg bones of a 1000 pounds steer, 8 layers of carpets and a 2" solid oak door.....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/model94_3030.htm

I suspect it could have been the classic (happens often with bear skulls) glancing shot (possible with any caliber regardless of power) or just a totally different encounter for the bear....it is hard to extrapolate the 30-30 ineffectiveness in this case.

Actually a very high velocity caliber against a bear at a very short range can results in catastrophic bullet failure (exploding) as it happened with a grizzly shot at 15 yards with a 300 Wby Magnum where the bullet literally blew apart after only 2-3 inches of penetration......slower bullets may go through better....

The only occurrence where I personally met the shooter and I actually saw the pictures of a 30-30 class cartridge stopping a grizzly was the case of a fisherman that dropped a big brownie (it was a charge) with his 35 Remington Marlin....two shots and it was over.

Few videos about the 30-30 "authority"

First, a respectable size black bear taken at 70 yards...one shot...is not a grizzly, however the thing behaved like it was struck by a lightning....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g4xILwfY60

I posted this one already before....nothing says I love you like a 30-30 in the head....a Boar that did not even knew what did hit him....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rNAIvEaOwo

Couple of people hunting dangerous Russian Wild Boar with the 30-30...never felt undergunned and the beasts were DRT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP3VHa0PIFc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-K6aDN4lY
 
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It's no disrespect to the .30-30 to say it would not be my choice for stopping a charging grizzley.
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It would not be my choice either obviously but a 170 gr. silvertip would not be stopped by a bear skull at 20-30 yards, unless we are talking about a bad angle/glancing shot
 
I think it would be pretty safe to assume that if any 170gr .30-30 bullet did not penetrate the skull it would have to have been at a severe angle. At which point it wouldn't have really mattered what cartridge the bullet came from.
 
If you think a 30-30 is weak don't even try with a .357 rifle, I just use mine for shooting mice in the barn, I won't even use it on rats, don't want to rile those things up.
 
Sorry but that story has some holes (no pun intended) on it...nothing to do with you but there is some faulty logic there.

Granted I do not consider a 30-30 a brown bear gun by any stretch of imagination even if it has been used as such by some up there in AK for decades.

I can understand the lack of penetration to the vitals from odd angles or with very large brown bears with body shots where you have to get through fat, muscles and bones.

But if this was a charging situation it means that first of all the range was very limited...supposedly the old man hit the bear in the skull, so no fat or muscle to get through....I do not know of any bone structure (we are not talking about elephants here) capable of stopping a 170 gr. silvertip at that short distance....there is a very well published penetration test where the Winchester Silvertips went through leg bones of a 1000 pounds steer, 8 layers of carpets and a 2" solid oak door.....
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No the skull didn't stop the 30-30 bullet, and yes it did gouge the skull and not penetrate. (i saw this for myself) I hunted bear for 25 years in Alaska, and i've seen what a head shot bear does. (along with many other types of hits)

If you think a 30-30 bullet will do anything a faster bullet with a higher SD will do, you are mistaken, and perhaps with a little more experience of different cartridges/bullets on big bears, you will think differently about your answer?

Keep in mind, a .308" 170 30-30 bullet is not only slower, it also is "softer" than a bigger heavier bullet used in a faster cartridge like a 300 win. mag., or even the heavier 7mm bullets.

When i designed and mfg'd bullets, i always designed the jackets for the intended speed the bullet would be used, just as all the other bullet makers still do today.

DM
 
It would not be my choice either obviously but a 170 gr. silvertip would not be stopped by a bear skull at 20-30 yards, unless we are talking about a bad angle/glancing shot
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And that's a key point -- it was a glancing shot and with the same shot a .300 Win Mag probably wouldn't have stopped that bear.

But if you were tracking a wounded grizzly and I was backing you up, we'd probably both feel better if I had something with a bit more muzzle energy that a .30-30.;)
 
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