It is indeed a "deal with powder" in addition to the use of a spitzer bullet. If you compare the numbers you will see that the 160gr LeverEvolution has a slightly higher muzzle velocity than the standard 150gr loadings in spite of using a 10 grain heavier bullet.
Is ballistic an opinion???? The underestimated 30-30 against grizzlies...
- Thread starter saturno_v
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I totally agree that hunting is one thing, shoot in defense against an enraged animal is another (you have to "convince" him that he is dead...)
But I would like to make 2 observations and ask your opinion about it..
1) Like someone already said.....in a defensive situation distances are very short and a 30-30 at 50 yards will go through anything "organic"....BUT we must stress again and again....we are implying the use of TOP QUALITY bullets.....I heard stories of grizzlies shot at pretty much point blank range with 300 mag where the bullet literally exploded on impact resulting in very little penetration....
2) I read several times phrases like this "I was astonished how the bear soaked several shots of 375 (or whatever big caliber considered more than adequate bear medicine was used) before to die"
To me that means that you can have an howitzer...if your shot placement sucks in situations like this, no matter what, you are going to have a bad day......at 40 yards a TOP QUALITY (I like to stress this point over and over) bullet fired from a .338 or a 30-30 I think is going to break a bear shoulder bone if placed correctly....
Disclaimer
I never hunted a bear so I'm trying to make an educated guess....
By the way....happy new year!!!
But I would like to make 2 observations and ask your opinion about it..
1) Like someone already said.....in a defensive situation distances are very short and a 30-30 at 50 yards will go through anything "organic"....BUT we must stress again and again....we are implying the use of TOP QUALITY bullets.....I heard stories of grizzlies shot at pretty much point blank range with 300 mag where the bullet literally exploded on impact resulting in very little penetration....
2) I read several times phrases like this "I was astonished how the bear soaked several shots of 375 (or whatever big caliber considered more than adequate bear medicine was used) before to die"
To me that means that you can have an howitzer...if your shot placement sucks in situations like this, no matter what, you are going to have a bad day......at 40 yards a TOP QUALITY (I like to stress this point over and over) bullet fired from a .338 or a 30-30 I think is going to break a bear shoulder bone if placed correctly....
Disclaimer
I never hunted a bear so I'm trying to make an educated guess....
By the way....happy new year!!!
Shawnee
member
"the 160gr LeverEvolution has a slightly higher muzzle velocity than the standard 150gr loadings in spite of using a 10 grain heavier bullet."
That's a fact. Though the MV of the 160-grainer is charted at only 10-20fps faster and the trajectory is no great improvement over the 150gr round nose, the retained energy of the 160-grainer at 100 and 200 yds. is significant, to wit...
150gr Round Nose is 1278 ft/lbs at 100 yds. and 832 ft/lbs. at 200 yds.
compared to the
160gr Leverlution with 1649 ft/lbs. at 100 yds. and 1304 ft/lbs. at 200 yds.
The Leverlution then has about 30% more ft/lbs. at 100 yds. and 57% more at 200 yds....and, at first blush, that sounds like "a lot better".
But we're talking two different bullet designs and the purpose of energy, after all, is to cause the bullet to perform with desireable result upon striking the game. The 160-grainer needs that extra energy, methinks, to perform as well as the 150-grainer (totally different design) does with its' more modest velocity. What usually doesn't get said is that the 150gr. round (or flat) nose bullets from the 30/30 are absolutely beautiful performers on deer, hogs, and black bear. (Fact is, they do great on coyotes too.)
Back in the late 80s Winchester still made their wonderful Silvertip ammo in 30/30 flat nose flavor - the lead exposed at the tip resembled a rose petal and, in fact, "rose petal" was sort of a nickname for it. It was accurate enough (though not the most accurate) but it's really endearing virtue was its' performance on deer, etc. That flat nose "rose petal" bullet from the 30/30 was one of the very best bullets I've ever seen for consistantly good mushrooming. I had a relative in northern Minnesota who had a jar full of them he had dug out of various deer and black bears and they were absolutely "textbook". If someone had ever told him he needed more than a 30/30 he would have been highly suspicious of their mental stability.
I don't know this - but I'm guessing the performance gain from using the Leverlution ammo might be quite a bit more significant when used in the Contender/Encore handguns than it is when used in lever-action rifles. But that's only my instinct speaking because I haven't done any such trial of them and haven't compared its' rifle vs. handgun velocities.
I noticed Winchester now markets a 150gr. flat-nosed hollowpoint for 30/30s and I would expect that to be an absolute GEM. With any luck I'll get to try them someday.
P.S. Happy New Year, Y'All !!
That's a fact. Though the MV of the 160-grainer is charted at only 10-20fps faster and the trajectory is no great improvement over the 150gr round nose, the retained energy of the 160-grainer at 100 and 200 yds. is significant, to wit...
150gr Round Nose is 1278 ft/lbs at 100 yds. and 832 ft/lbs. at 200 yds.
compared to the
160gr Leverlution with 1649 ft/lbs. at 100 yds. and 1304 ft/lbs. at 200 yds.
The Leverlution then has about 30% more ft/lbs. at 100 yds. and 57% more at 200 yds....and, at first blush, that sounds like "a lot better".
But we're talking two different bullet designs and the purpose of energy, after all, is to cause the bullet to perform with desireable result upon striking the game. The 160-grainer needs that extra energy, methinks, to perform as well as the 150-grainer (totally different design) does with its' more modest velocity. What usually doesn't get said is that the 150gr. round (or flat) nose bullets from the 30/30 are absolutely beautiful performers on deer, hogs, and black bear. (Fact is, they do great on coyotes too.)
Back in the late 80s Winchester still made their wonderful Silvertip ammo in 30/30 flat nose flavor - the lead exposed at the tip resembled a rose petal and, in fact, "rose petal" was sort of a nickname for it. It was accurate enough (though not the most accurate) but it's really endearing virtue was its' performance on deer, etc. That flat nose "rose petal" bullet from the 30/30 was one of the very best bullets I've ever seen for consistantly good mushrooming. I had a relative in northern Minnesota who had a jar full of them he had dug out of various deer and black bears and they were absolutely "textbook". If someone had ever told him he needed more than a 30/30 he would have been highly suspicious of their mental stability.
I don't know this - but I'm guessing the performance gain from using the Leverlution ammo might be quite a bit more significant when used in the Contender/Encore handguns than it is when used in lever-action rifles. But that's only my instinct speaking because I haven't done any such trial of them and haven't compared its' rifle vs. handgun velocities.
I noticed Winchester now markets a 150gr. flat-nosed hollowpoint for 30/30s and I would expect that to be an absolute GEM. With any luck I'll get to try them someday.
P.S. Happy New Year, Y'All !!
Gosh now I want a 30-30 Marlin lever action in my arsenal so bad!!!!
Actually I do not understand why while the 30-30 is considered underpowered, the 45-70 is considerate more than adequate for grizzlies...the 45-70 has a bit more energy at the muzzle but it shed energy quickly and has way worse sectional density...can the greater weight and bigger diameter be of so much more advantage???
Actually I do not understand why while the 30-30 is considered underpowered, the 45-70 is considerate more than adequate for grizzlies...the 45-70 has a bit more energy at the muzzle but it shed energy quickly and has way worse sectional density...can the greater weight and bigger diameter be of so much more advantage???
Yes, it's only 10-20fps faster but with a 10 grain heavier bullet. If you compare it with the standard loadings, it should be 100fps SLOWER than the 150grainers--instead it is 10-20fps FASTER.
As far as the trajectory being "no great improvement over the 150gr round nose. The 160 with a 200 yard zero is 3 inches high at 100 yards and only 12 inches down at 300 yards. For an 8" kill zone that gives you no holdover out to past 250 yards where you still have well over 1000ft/lbs of retained energy.
I don't see many people complaining about the performance of Hornady bullets. Either way, even if you are correct and it DOES need that extra energy, it's a moot point--because it has the extra energy it needs--and a flatter trajectory besides.
Same back at ya! And to the rest of you as well.
Wow - I don't think I have ever had so many posters agree with me!
The LeverEvolution appears to get at least 2000 ft-lbs at the muzzle, which is pretty great, and around 200 more than other factory 30-30 rounds. That is probably why I see stacks of .308 Marlin ammo unsold at Bass Pro Shop, while the 30-30 LeverEvolution slots are almost always empty.
If they made a (rubber) spitzer-tipped heavy hardcast load for the 30-30, it would make a very versatile rifle even more versatile. I am just wishing is all . . .
Matt-J2
Member
azredhawk44 said:From Snopes.com:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearhunt.asp
This is an urban myth. The chewed up hiker and the bear shot with the 7mm auto are totally unrelated.
I got fooled by the same story, Dick.
Hehe.
I hadn't given the other comment too much thought, but looking at that link reminded me. I was stationed at Ft Wainwright(Fairbanks) when that bear was shot. I even clipped those very pics out of the newspaper! Sure don't recall that bear having eaten folks at the time. Maybe it got zombiefied later!
As to the topic at hand and some other posts:
If I knew I was going to be attacked by a bear or other nasty critter, I wouldn't bring a gun. I'd just not show up at all!
Not sure if I'd take either a 30-30 or a .44. Being as vague as I can, I'd pack as much power as I could handle. If I regularly visited bear territory, I'd be sure to train myself to handle something with more power, but still able to be fired quickly and repeatedly. It'd have to be something fairly easily hauled about as well.
Choice is easy, eh?
Float Pilot
Member
If you are going to carry a 30-30 in big bear country,,, Which is better than nothing,,, Those new pointy bullets are really not of much use. They are good for longer ranges while shooting at deer, moose and up here, the smaller north slope caribou. But for close-range encounters you need a heavy flat nosed bullet. You can load a 170 grain flat nose to 2,200 fps from a carbine and a 190 grain to 2100. Most of the Whinchester Model 94 carbines have a one in 12 twist which is somewhat of a limit. Plus you have to worry about your overall length for the action to work. For protection you only need to worry about 50 yards and closer. In this case the older rifles with the cresent butt make for a more steady hold while working the lever as fast as your little hands will work.
Shawnee
member
Hi JohnKSA...
LOL ! You're absolutely right about the POA hold moving out a few yards with the Leverlution. But I will humbly dispute accepting an 8-inch drop from POA because it's a good way to just take a leg off. That's pretty sloppy (IMHO). Thus the Leverlution is back to, perhaps 225yds. - as opposed to 200yds for the 150-grainer and, without a good rangefinder, it's real easy to misjudge by 10 or 15 of that extra 25 yds. at that distance.
I didn't say, or mean to imply, that the performance of the Leverlution bullet is lacking. But the 150-grainer will be "completely satisfactory" and neither the 160-grainer (nor any other bullet) can be any better than that.
Hi FloatPilot...
Excellent point about the curved buttplate, FP.
LOL ! You're absolutely right about the POA hold moving out a few yards with the Leverlution. But I will humbly dispute accepting an 8-inch drop from POA because it's a good way to just take a leg off. That's pretty sloppy (IMHO). Thus the Leverlution is back to, perhaps 225yds. - as opposed to 200yds for the 150-grainer and, without a good rangefinder, it's real easy to misjudge by 10 or 15 of that extra 25 yds. at that distance.
I didn't say, or mean to imply, that the performance of the Leverlution bullet is lacking. But the 150-grainer will be "completely satisfactory" and neither the 160-grainer (nor any other bullet) can be any better than that.
Hi FloatPilot...
Excellent point about the curved buttplate, FP.
wheelgunslinger
Member
That is correct. Placement is everything. Crew served weapons included.
However, shot placement is never a total guarantee, thanks to the rudimentary nature of the Bear's CNS and circulatory system.
I am not a bear hunter though. I don't eat bear, and I don't take trophies. So, I have no reason to kill a bear other than for defense. Though, I've been around plenty of black bear while deer hunting, I've never been to Alaska, only northern Alberta, packing the rockies, and such. So, I'm not a Griz expert. I've been around them.
However, I've seen a great deal bowhunting, with regard to the resilience and will to live displayed by animals mortally wounded. Sometimes they pile up and sometimes they have enough gas to do something else.
I think people get caught up trying to find an equation when it comes to bear. 2+2=4 or Bear + caliber= safe, and I don't think it's possible. There aren't any guarantees.
Ask any Shaman or Native folklorist and you'll likely hear that the Bear was made to give man something to fear in the woods so he wouldn't get too big for his britches while out in nature. Looks like it still works.
I know I'm scared of angry black bear and browns, for sure. Doesn't matter what rifle I'm holding. It still gets taken deadly serious.
MCgunner
Member
So, they do the "light magnum" trick. Still no 300 mag you got there. There's only so much you can do out of the muzzle with a 38,000 CUP limit. The primary advantage is still the bullet design. Yeah, it's a slight improvement, 10 whoppin' grains more at the same velocity as a 150 grain factory load that is underloaded normally in the first place. You can beat factory ballistics by that much by handloading. However, the bullet gives the round its better down range energy/velocity retention and that bullet, I'm sure, will perform, being basically a ballistic tip. If you removed the polymer tip, you have a HUGE hollow point. That's why the Nosler BT expands so well even at .30-30 velocities. I use that bullet in my .30-30 contender.
I think for bear defense, I'd not care about down range retained energy so much as penetration and I'd be loading up with the 160 Nosler. Actually, I do have a 200 grain gas check mold in .308, but don't shoot it. POI was such as to make it useless for practice at any decent range. I wouldn't rely on it for bear defense, would want a partition if I was stuck with a .30-30 in bear country.
MCgunner
Member
One thought, for a huge bear defense gun, why not a Saiga 12 gauge? I don't know how heavy one is to tote, but you could lay down some lead with one. It's black and it's ugly and a bear wouldn't mistake you for a tourist, or if so, a well armed tourist. You could always carry it under your poncho
You could always carry it under your ponchoI'm not sure if this was brought up yet but I have a CZ 562 7.62 x 39mm, an M1 Garand, 30.06 and AR10B .308 and have done quite a bit of target shooting with the first two, I'm still breaking in the AR10B.
As far as penetration the AR10B is by far the best in penetration. When the round hits the backstop it drills a hole about 5" wided and 4~5" deep. My M1 doesn't even come close.
As already mentioned accuracy is just as important. I guess it wouldn't make any difference if I shot a bear and the bullet went all the way through without the accuracy. It would probably just make it mad.
As far as penetration the AR10B is by far the best in penetration. When the round hits the backstop it drills a hole about 5" wided and 4~5" deep. My M1 doesn't even come close.
As already mentioned accuracy is just as important. I guess it wouldn't make any difference if I shot a bear and the bullet went all the way through without the accuracy. It would probably just make it mad.
plumberroy
Member
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A grizzly can run 35 miles per hour. if you do the math thats 51.3 feet per second 40 yards in 2.33 seconds no matter what you are shooting if the first shot don't get it done your day it going to get bad quick
Roy
Roy
scrat
Member
ok i got to add in.
50 CAL Black Powder rifle.
Can it kill a Bull Elephant
with a muzzle velocity of about 1500fps
Think about it. 1 shot black powder
any takers opinions
50 CAL Black Powder rifle.
Can it kill a Bull Elephant
with a muzzle velocity of about 1500fps
Think about it. 1 shot black powder
any takers opinions
salty
Member
A pistol would be a better than nothing but if a bear encounter was likely I would not want to bewt my life on one. If you are going to carry a long arm in bear country when fishing why not carry a 12 ga. shotgun. If you end up having to shoot the bear it is going to be close range. A shotgun can be kept broken down in a backpack if you are hiking in open country where a bear can be seen and avoided then quickly assembled for use when the terrain dictates.
Not me. But then I'm not much of a levergun fan. If I was, and I was going into big bear country I'd carry a 45-70 guide gun. Cause I want to live.
Same for African lions. Get a bigger gun so you can reproduce when you get back. And watch football games in your underwear. Ya see, you can't do those things if you're dead.
Guns aren't all that expensive ya know, it's kinda like a cheap life insurance policy. Save that 30-30 or 270 for hunting deer when you get back home.
When I was new to these forums and didn't know all that much about the different cartridges, their effect on game and the guns that shoot them I didn't argue much. Instead I used the search button and read a lot. But everybody is different.
Same for African lions. Get a bigger gun so you can reproduce when you get back. And watch football games in your underwear. Ya see, you can't do those things if you're dead.
Guns aren't all that expensive ya know, it's kinda like a cheap life insurance policy. Save that 30-30 or 270 for hunting deer when you get back home.
When I was new to these forums and didn't know all that much about the different cartridges, their effect on game and the guns that shoot them I didn't argue much. Instead I used the search button and read a lot. But everybody is different.
scrat
Member
i guess not
I say a 50 cal black powder with a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps can kill dead in its tracks a full grown bull elephant
scrat
Member
here is the video of the president from powerbelt bullets shooting a bull elephant with a black powder 50 cal
http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/trophyden.html
What this proves and shows. With the right bullet anything is possible especially with a 30-30. Most people who reload can match the right bullet with the right powder and primer. The right combination will make the 30-30 just as lethal as anything else out there.
STill dont believe.
ok
the 30-30 takes a .308 bullet. So does the 30-06. and so many other rifles. At less than 100 yards, lets say maybe 60 yards. If i were to put the same bullet tip in my 30-30 that a 30-06 would have. The hit would be the same. As 60 yards is not far enough to make a significant drop. Same time 60 yards is nothing to a 30-06 and is still pretty much nothing to a 30-30.
So with the right bullet powder combination you can have an effective 30-30. After that its all about shot placement. RElook at the video. This is a bull elephant being shot down by a 1500fps muzzle loading 50 cal
http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/trophyden.html
What this proves and shows. With the right bullet anything is possible especially with a 30-30. Most people who reload can match the right bullet with the right powder and primer. The right combination will make the 30-30 just as lethal as anything else out there.
STill dont believe.
ok
the 30-30 takes a .308 bullet. So does the 30-06. and so many other rifles. At less than 100 yards, lets say maybe 60 yards. If i were to put the same bullet tip in my 30-30 that a 30-06 would have. The hit would be the same. As 60 yards is not far enough to make a significant drop. Same time 60 yards is nothing to a 30-06 and is still pretty much nothing to a 30-30.
So with the right bullet powder combination you can have an effective 30-30. After that its all about shot placement. RElook at the video. This is a bull elephant being shot down by a 1500fps muzzle loading 50 cal
MCgunner
Member
I think I'll leave the old Hawken for sporting/hunting use on game that won't eat me. Hogs at best. I only get about 1250 fps out of a 385 grain great plains, but then, I have a short carbine with 20" barrel.
I see little wrong with the old Mossberg. Most I'd have to buy is a slug barrel for it. But, I ain't plannin' on moving to the far north. Oh, personally, cold or not, I'd probably like it up there, but I have this wife that thinks Calhoun County is the next thing to being isolated in Antarctica.
I only get about 1250 fps out of a 385 grain great plains, but then, I have a short carbine with 20" barrel.I see little wrong with the old Mossberg. Most I'd have to buy is a slug barrel for it. But, I ain't plannin' on moving to the far north. Oh, personally, cold or not, I'd probably like it up there, but I have this wife that thinks Calhoun County is the next thing to being isolated in Antarctica.
R.W.Dale
Member
NO the hit wouldn't be the same. The tougher "30-06" tips probably wouldn't expand very well if at all at the much slower velocities of a 30-30
You MUST match the bullet construction to the velocity. If you loaded 30-30 bullets in a 30-06 and shot a critter at 60yds the bullet would most likely explode on impact with very little penetration.
scrat
Member
true that was not stated. what was stated is if you put a 30-06 bullet in a 30-30 it would be very similar. As most 30-06 are fmj
R.W.Dale
Member
Where do you get this stuff?
I've NEVER seen a box of commercial 30-06 FMJ ammunition on the shelf of a gunshop. Most 30-06 ammo most certainly is NOT full metal jacket.
No matter how much you wish it were so NO 30-30 load will ever equal 30-06
scrat
Member
Actually i am wondering where you got yours. fmj is common military .308 rounds. as far as saying a 30-30 bullet will explode on impact did you just make this up.
a stock 30-30 is nothing more than a jacketed round nose. there are also jacketed flat nose. all 30 caliber bullets are .308. almost all of them are interchangeable. with the exception that spire bullets should not be loaded in tubular magazines. There are people who use different types of .308 bullets to match what they are shooting. Now again a 30-30 is not a 30.06 it will not have the same amount of energy or inertia as a 30.06. However if you take the same type of bullet tip from a 30-06 and place it in a 30-30. Shooting at a ballistic gelatin mold. You will have deaper penetration from the 30.06 however the trailing line will be similar. Very similiar.
available bullets for 30-06 some same as 30-30.
http://www.reloadammo.com/3006load.htm
a stock 30-30 is nothing more than a jacketed round nose. there are also jacketed flat nose. all 30 caliber bullets are .308. almost all of them are interchangeable. with the exception that spire bullets should not be loaded in tubular magazines. There are people who use different types of .308 bullets to match what they are shooting. Now again a 30-30 is not a 30.06 it will not have the same amount of energy or inertia as a 30.06. However if you take the same type of bullet tip from a 30-06 and place it in a 30-30. Shooting at a ballistic gelatin mold. You will have deaper penetration from the 30.06 however the trailing line will be similar. Very similiar.
available bullets for 30-06 some same as 30-30.
http://www.reloadammo.com/3006load.htm
R.W.Dale
Member
The jackets on 30-30 bullets are MUCH MUCH thinner than bullets for higher velocity 30 caliber rifles. The thinner jackets allow for expansion at 30-30 speeds which are a good 700 fps slower than even 308 win.
Drive a .308 diameter 150grn FP for a 30-30 2900fps from a 30-06 and it WILL behave the same way a varmint bullet does. Total disintegration apoun impact.
While they may be the same diameter as other .308 bullets the construction of 30-30 bullets is much different
FMJ 30-06 or 308 has been rather UNCOMMON to find for quite a few years now. All of the 30-06 ammo on the shelf at wal-mart, academy and bass pro will be soft point hunting ammo
Remington alone offers 19 different 30-06 loads only one of which uses a FMJ bullet.
They offer 4 30-30 loads
No you will most likely get deeper penetration from the 30-30 as you bullet won't expand well and will do a poor job of transfering it's energy into the gelatin due to the lack of expansion and thus will penetrate more deeply than a bullet that expands and is able to transfer more energy (velocity) into the gel.
Velocity is the fuel that drives bullet expansion the more fuel you have the more expansion you get. The more expansion you get the less penetration you end up with.
Perhaps you should buy a reloading manual and do some more research before commenting on something you odiously know VERY little about.
Drive a .308 diameter 150grn FP for a 30-30 2900fps from a 30-06 and it WILL behave the same way a varmint bullet does. Total disintegration apoun impact.
While they may be the same diameter as other .308 bullets the construction of 30-30 bullets is much different
FMJ 30-06 or 308 has been rather UNCOMMON to find for quite a few years now. All of the 30-06 ammo on the shelf at wal-mart, academy and bass pro will be soft point hunting ammo
Remington alone offers 19 different 30-06 loads only one of which uses a FMJ bullet.
They offer 4 30-30 loads
No you will most likely get deeper penetration from the 30-30 as you bullet won't expand well and will do a poor job of transfering it's energy into the gelatin due to the lack of expansion and thus will penetrate more deeply than a bullet that expands and is able to transfer more energy (velocity) into the gel.
Velocity is the fuel that drives bullet expansion the more fuel you have the more expansion you get. The more expansion you get the less penetration you end up with.
Perhaps you should buy a reloading manual and do some more research before commenting on something you odiously know VERY little about.
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